Monday, October 09, 2006
The Most Important CRPGs of All Time
Gamasutra has a new article for the "Quantum Leap" awards for RPGs. Sadly, the votes for the Ultima games were spread among so many titles (principally 4-7, Ultima Underworld 2, and Ultima Online) that the entire series became an "honorable mention" rather than one of the top 5.
According to the poll, the Console and Computer RPGs that most defined or advanced the genre are:#1 - Fallout
#2 - Planescape: Torment
#3 - Oblivion
#4 - Deus Ex
#5 - Chrono Trigger
Honorable mentions included Dragon Warrior, the entire Ultima series, EverQuest, Baldur's Gate II, Final Fantasy IV (FF2 in the US), and Neverwinter Nights.
I don't have many arguments against that list. I tried to play Deus Ex about three times and it just couldn't hold my attention. I really wanted to love it. But I can't argue against it's innovation.
Baldur's Gate II is definitely one of my all-time favorite RPGs, but I would argue that certain games (like the Wizardry series, specifically the first and 7th) were more influential on the genre. If nothing else, Baldur's Gate I was proof to the computer games industry that the RPG genre was indeed alive and kicking, when the prevailing attitude was that RPGs were dead and that Diablo was a fluke.
Speaking of Diablo, I am surprised isn't on the list. While I loved Diablo and Diablo 2, I am fairly annoyed at how much influence they've had on the genre. Point and click battles are fine and all for some games, but I hate seeing so much of the genre reduced to that. But Diablo added multiplayer dungeon-deliving, persistant characters (not worlds, just characters), rogue-style gameplay with nearly infinite varieties of dungeons and equipment, and a shot-in-the-arm in the way of simple action to push the genre in new directions.
Here's hoping that in future years some indie computer RPGs will make the list...
Labels: Mainstream Games, retro, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 2:11 PM (Permalink)
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It's funny, Deus Ex is the only one in the top five that I've played and I thought that was a fantastic game.
I agree with you, though, that Wizardry (the first one) should be high on the list, given its impact on the field. I loved the Baldur's Gate games as well, but I'm not sure how much of an impact those had on the industry.
Now, if we can only get them to compile a list of "the most important 3D graphical interactive fiction games of all time" in a little while...
I agree with you, though, that Wizardry (the first one) should be high on the list, given its impact on the field. I loved the Baldur's Gate games as well, but I'm not sure how much of an impact those had on the industry.
Now, if we can only get them to compile a list of "the most important 3D graphical interactive fiction games of all time" in a little while...
# posted by 
: October 10, 2006 8:48 AM
: October 10, 2006 8:48 AM
I tried to play Deus Ex about three times and it just couldn't hold my attention.
A few folks I know have said the same thing. I wish the game had been more accessible -- it's one of my top ten of all time, and I think it was an "important" title.
A few folks I know have said the same thing. I wish the game had been more accessible -- it's one of my top ten of all time, and I think it was an "important" title.
It may be that it suffered from the same problems I noted in my How To Get Me To Buy Your Indie RPG post. The story didn't seem to have anything to really hook me from the get go, and I soon found that it had been a few weeks since I played it and I didn't really care what was supposed to happen next. There were hints of a big conspiracy, but a couple of hours into the game and it was only "interesting," not "intriguing."
Contrast that with F.E.A.R., which was only innovative in its choice of horror genre / storytelling (and then only marginally) - but I kept playing the dang thing to uncover the mystery. Now if you took F.E.A.R.'s storytelling and Deus Ex's gameplay...
Contrast that with F.E.A.R., which was only innovative in its choice of horror genre / storytelling (and then only marginally) - but I kept playing the dang thing to uncover the mystery. Now if you took F.E.A.R.'s storytelling and Deus Ex's gameplay...
It greatly amused me that your list of games was cut off in the RSS feed as:
#1 - Fallout
#2 -
Exactly.
#1 - Fallout
#2 -
Exactly.
Each time I see one such list I wonder - where's the love for "The Bard's Tale" as a series? Thinking about how much I loved some of the music from these titles makes me feel old.
Maybe it's just me, combined to the fact that it was one of the first I really played...
Fallout and Deus Ex are on my (way too long) 'To Do' list...
Maybe it's just me, combined to the fact that it was one of the first I really played...
Fallout and Deus Ex are on my (way too long) 'To Do' list...
Well, I suck as a gamer. The only game on the list that I've played is Chrono Trigger. I've also played Dragon Warrior. I am surprised that Wizardry didn't make the list, though.
I wonder why Oblivion made the list instead of the earlier titles, like Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind. While Oblivion pushed the envelope as far as graphics were concerned, I think Daggerfall in particular had more of an impact on the industry, with it's absolutely ENORMOUS world, randomized dungeons (that were really really big... became very easy to get lost in a dungeon), impressive storylines, etc.
Oblivion is much smaller in scale (out of necessity, perhaps). And from a game design perspective, I think Bethesda screwed up when they implemented leveled loot and leveled enemies.
One of the beauties of Morrowind was that you could get your ass handed to you on a plate if you stepped into the wrong dungeon. With Oblivian, you'd always be slightly better or slightly worse than your opponent, no matter where you go. Hell, you can close the first gate to Oblivion when you are still first level!
The trouble with this is not only do you not ever feel particularly powerful, you do not ever feel particularly weak either.
One of the biggest draws of RPGs is that you can take a character (or a party) from weak to strong -- you have many moments where you simply cannot complete the quest or clear the dungeon until you are stronger. And so it is incredibly satisfying to return to a tough place a few levels later and defeat the opponent who used to smack you around.
I'm glad Deus Ex and Fallout made the list. I do wish that Wizardry and Ultima made the top 5.
Oblivion is much smaller in scale (out of necessity, perhaps). And from a game design perspective, I think Bethesda screwed up when they implemented leveled loot and leveled enemies.
One of the beauties of Morrowind was that you could get your ass handed to you on a plate if you stepped into the wrong dungeon. With Oblivian, you'd always be slightly better or slightly worse than your opponent, no matter where you go. Hell, you can close the first gate to Oblivion when you are still first level!
The trouble with this is not only do you not ever feel particularly powerful, you do not ever feel particularly weak either.
One of the biggest draws of RPGs is that you can take a character (or a party) from weak to strong -- you have many moments where you simply cannot complete the quest or clear the dungeon until you are stronger. And so it is incredibly satisfying to return to a tough place a few levels later and defeat the opponent who used to smack you around.
I'm glad Deus Ex and Fallout made the list. I do wish that Wizardry and Ultima made the top 5.
# posted by : October 10, 2006 12:33 PM
: October 10, 2006 12:33 PM
I loved The Bard's Tale. I think The Bard's Tale, and the SSI "Gold Box" 1st edition AD&D games deserve at least a spot in the Honorable Mentions list.
As to my deficiency in not having played all these games... ahem... well, I am CURRENTLY playing Fallout. Yeah, only eight years late. I'd seen it played, read a ton about it, but never actually sat down and played it through. It still seems like a fun game, though I wouldn't mind a bit cleaner interface with more modern sensibilities.
A buddy has loaned me Planescape: Torment, as well, so I shall have a gaping hole in my CRPG knowledge and experience filled in. I will thus be more confident and secure at parties, and mumble less in speaking publicly when the inevitable topic of surviving a nuclear war or the nature of the afterlife comes up, because I will have BEEN THERE, man!
Besides, the only other post-Apocalyptic RPG I've played was Twilight: 2000. It's been a decade and a half since that one came out. I need to get over it. It will never be patched...
As to my deficiency in not having played all these games... ahem... well, I am CURRENTLY playing Fallout. Yeah, only eight years late. I'd seen it played, read a ton about it, but never actually sat down and played it through. It still seems like a fun game, though I wouldn't mind a bit cleaner interface with more modern sensibilities.
A buddy has loaned me Planescape: Torment, as well, so I shall have a gaping hole in my CRPG knowledge and experience filled in. I will thus be more confident and secure at parties, and mumble less in speaking publicly when the inevitable topic of surviving a nuclear war or the nature of the afterlife comes up, because I will have BEEN THERE, man!
Besides, the only other post-Apocalyptic RPG I've played was Twilight: 2000. It's been a decade and a half since that one came out. I need to get over it. It will never be patched...
Fallout was fantastic, Deus Ex was great - but you did need to fight through the first section to get the story started. The first goal - where you had to kill a guy who was smuggling stuff was where the story became more interesting.
He wasn't smuggling for money, but rather so people could live... made you get a lot more interested in what you had to do later in the game.
Lots of choices.
---
In other news... could you please switch your RSS feed to full-text?
Then I can read your stuff offline on the commute to work.
Thanks
He wasn't smuggling for money, but rather so people could live... made you get a lot more interested in what you had to do later in the game.
Lots of choices.
---
In other news... could you please switch your RSS feed to full-text?
Then I can read your stuff offline on the commute to work.
Thanks
The only one on that list that seems odd to me is Oblivion.
Jagged Alliance 2 might not be a typical RPG, but it had the best unique characters in any game I´ve played. Oblivion could learn something from that. I´ts probably the game with the most generic characters I´ve played.
Jagged Alliance 2 might not be a typical RPG, but it had the best unique characters in any game I´ve played. Oblivion could learn something from that. I´ts probably the game with the most generic characters I´ve played.
# posted by : October 11, 2006 4:29 AM
: October 11, 2006 4:29 AM
The only one I missed in that top 5 is Chrono Trigger. I do find the choice of Oblivion a bit strange as well. Morrowwind would have been a sounder choice, if for no other reason than it has stood the test of time.
Fallout had such a wonderful system of character devlopment, and the game is so beloved by so many - I still can't imagine why someone else hasn't come along and tried to capture (read: rip off) that system since then.
I've mentioned before that d20 mechanics are less-than-optimal for computer RPGs, and I really wish more RPG makers would move away from the "d20" mentality and try to come up with something as innovative as the system in Fallout.
Fallout had such a wonderful system of character devlopment, and the game is so beloved by so many - I still can't imagine why someone else hasn't come along and tried to capture (read: rip off) that system since then.
I've mentioned before that d20 mechanics are less-than-optimal for computer RPGs, and I really wish more RPG makers would move away from the "d20" mentality and try to come up with something as innovative as the system in Fallout.
Well, there is The Omega Syndrome, an indie game heavily influenced by Fallout. Though as an indie game it lacks the scope of the game that inspired it.
As to the Morrowind / Oblivion debate... I suspect that Oblivion will prove more influential in the future than Morrowind ever was. I suspect it is already more successful in terms of sales. It's also a "Marquee" launch title for the PS3 right now. The more streamlined interface coupled with the immersiveness of the game (graphics, AI, and stories - note the plural) are the keys of its success IMO.
As for me - I never finished Morrowind, but I did finish Oblicion. Maybe it's because Morrowind was the larger game, or that Oblivion was better at pointing you back in the direction of a plotline you can follow. Personally, I think it was storyline. In Morrowind, you are dropped off in a port village with a vague idea of a mission. I really just found myself kicking around the country looking or stuff to do. In Oblivion, you are stepped through it and it's more personal. More heavy-handed, sure, but it works. As soon as I completed the main plotline, I found my interest in the game waning, though there was still plenty of "kicking around the country looking for something to do" left in the game.
As to the Morrowind / Oblivion debate... I suspect that Oblivion will prove more influential in the future than Morrowind ever was. I suspect it is already more successful in terms of sales. It's also a "Marquee" launch title for the PS3 right now. The more streamlined interface coupled with the immersiveness of the game (graphics, AI, and stories - note the plural) are the keys of its success IMO.
As for me - I never finished Morrowind, but I did finish Oblicion. Maybe it's because Morrowind was the larger game, or that Oblivion was better at pointing you back in the direction of a plotline you can follow. Personally, I think it was storyline. In Morrowind, you are dropped off in a port village with a vague idea of a mission. I really just found myself kicking around the country looking or stuff to do. In Oblivion, you are stepped through it and it's more personal. More heavy-handed, sure, but it works. As soon as I completed the main plotline, I found my interest in the game waning, though there was still plenty of "kicking around the country looking for something to do" left in the game.
I'd very much like to see your thoughts on both Fallout and PS:T - although both of them reward replay, so it might be a while.
Otherwise, it's a good list. Bethesda deserves a slot, but their games have generally been spectacular proofs of concept. Oblivion is the most polished of them so far, so I can see that getting the nod over earlier and rougher works, even if those works were more influential.
Actually, I'm not sure PS:T deserves to be there - it is a remarkable game, but who's been following in its footsteps? Can it really be said to have advanced the genre if it has no true successors?
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Otherwise, it's a good list. Bethesda deserves a slot, but their games have generally been spectacular proofs of concept. Oblivion is the most polished of them so far, so I can see that getting the nod over earlier and rougher works, even if those works were more influential.
Actually, I'm not sure PS:T deserves to be there - it is a remarkable game, but who's been following in its footsteps? Can it really be said to have advanced the genre if it has no true successors?
# posted by : October 11, 2006 11:19 PM
: October 11, 2006 11:19 PMLinks to this post:
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