Tuesday, March 20, 2007
Making A Rogue-Friendly RPG Part 2: The Rogue's Role
One of my favorite strips in "Knights of the Dinner Table" (A comic about... believe it or not... RPG players) is entitled "It Takes a Thief." Bob, the player of the group's thief (rogue), is late for the game, and so the party is attempting to get some playing done without him.The Game Master, B.A., sets the stage for a contest in town with a very valuable prize that their characters could participate in. He explains, "An ornate rug approximately fifty feet by fifty feet square covers the center of the flagstone pavement. Dead center in the middle of the rug is a fine golden goblet. It is encrusted with gems around its rim. And sitting in it is a marvelous ovate opal."
He goes on to explain the rules. "The nice lady explains to the group that the first person to take possession of the gem without bearing down on the rug may keep the opal and the goblet. But here are the rules! You can not walk on the carpet. You cannot suspend someone over the carpet. You cannot attempt to hit the goblet or stone with any kind of missile or thrown item. And you cannot use magic items or spells to accomplish the task." There are twelve other (non-player-character) travellers attempting the puzzle, and each participant is only allowed one attempt per day.
The players struggle for three hours (and several in-game days) trying to solve the puzzle, with no luck. Their attempts get disqualified because of the use of magic. One player attempts to disbelieve the rug as an illusion and just walk over it, to see if its all a trick. They attempt to pole vault across the rug (missing woefully). They try to send a trained monkey across to pick up the gem. They try stilts. They build a small catapult to fling a player across the room - resulting in no goblet and a lot of damage as he strikes the wall on the other side. They plan to build a suspension bridge across the courtyard, but are told that it is not allowed.
Finally, Bob shows up. The other players express their woes, and one player expresses the opinion, "Don't bother, Bob. It's a no-solver that B.A. threw at us to keep us occupied until you showed up."
After Bob hears the rules, he says, "Well, let me start with the most obvious solution. I kneel down on my knees at the edge of the rug and begin to roll it up. When I get to the middle, I'll reach over and pick up the goblet and the opal."
B.A. exclaims, "That's it! The opal and the goblet are yours!"
The other players stare at Bob in disbelief, and then in frustration. He says to them, "Sorry, dudes. Sometimes it just 'takes a thief!'" (Then he decides not to share his treasures, and dances a mocking jig on the table. The other players rip up his character sheet and pour soda down his pants. He got off easy.)
Rogue Is a State of Mind
Now, playing a rogue in an RPG isn't necessarily going to translate to clever outside-the-box thinking on the part of the player (at least for most players). But I think it illustrates a point that I promised to talk regarding some concrete ways to make a more rogue-friendly RPG.
Rogue is as much a state of mind as it is a set of rogue-like skills. The rogue, to me, is the outside-the-box thinker. They follow the fighter-pilot admonition "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." And they in some way embody the trickster achetype - Loki, Coyote, Raven, Brer Rabbit, Puck, and others.
When given the choice of the lady and the tiger, the rogue is the guy who tries to open both doors at the same time, and then make his escape while the tiger is busy eating the lady, and then trying to figure out how to run off with the princess later. The rogue is Captain Kirk reprogramming the simulation so that he could beat the Kobiyashi Maru scenario. The rogue gets around the rules, possibly even breaking the rules, often choosing higher risk for higher reward.
Which undoubtably annoys other players in a multiplayer game when the risks don't pan out.
Motivation many vary, but in general what a rogue player in an RPG wants to feel like he's contributing to the group's success (in a multiplayer game) in a meaningful way, has the chance to really shine with his unique abilities once in a while, and that he gets to do it all by being clever, tricky, and and cunning rather than just being mightier-than-all-opposition.
A Rogue By Any Other Name
Of course, this isn't limited to a rogue "class" (particularly if you are playing a non-class-based system). Any player or character can have a rogue mindset. An RPG might have several rogue-like classes that specialize in cleverness and non-traditional tactics under different names: Swashbuckler, smuggler, netrunner, thief, scoundrel, fixer, secret agent, scout, whatever. Or it might be a classless system.
In Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, the illusionist class (pre-3rd edition, when it became just a specialization) had plenty of roguelike potential. It was also very hard to play well, as the sheer flexibility and power of the spells tended to confuse players. I thought the Enchanter class in EverQuest had more of a roguish style of play than the rogue class itself. When they weren't being tapped as little more than a mana battery.
Mixing Rogues And Non-Rogues
Sun Tzu talks about the orthodox and the unorthodox giving rise to each other, and how the combination of unorthodox surprise attack and the orthodox direct attack, used in combination, lead to victory. In a party-based game, the rogue is (at least in theory) the unorthodox specialist. Even if orthodox combat, in the real world, scouting, espionage, and surveillance is a critical activity... all rogue-like specialties. Laying siege to a castle isn't necessary if you've got an "inside man" who can leave the back door open for you.
The roguely route might be offer the chance of the highest reward for the least resources, but it also often yields to the highest risk. Clever plans go south. That's where the rest of the group comes in to pull the rogue's butt out of the fire --- er, I mean, provide a backup contingency plan. When you finally get caught sneaking through the Imperial battle station trying to rescue the princess, it's time for a few straight-up fights while you make your escape.
Playing the Rogue
Playing a rogue well in a dice & paper RPG (and precious few CRPGs) means taking a pro-active rather than reactive stance in regards to using one's... unique talents. The rogue shouldn't be waiting around for the game (or game master) to throw her an opportunity to use her skills. This is why things like disarming traps, spotting secret doors, and unlocking doors - things which people automatically think of when you talk about rogues in a traditional medieval fantasy RPG - are really weak applications for rogues. Sure, it's nice to help them feel needed. And those kinds of activities can be a amusing... for the rogue, at least. Everyone else just sits around waiting for the rogue to make her rolls, though, idly wondering if she'll keel over dead from a botched trap-disarm check.
A Rogue-Friendly Game System
Consequently, a good rogue-friendly game system should include skills usable by the rogue at any time - or at least in common situations. Disarming traps is a special case situation (which requires additional work by the level designers). But what about setting traps? I can attest by experience that this was the single most powerful rogue skill in Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate II (In BG2, I think I killed Demogorgon this way... )
Another great addition to Dungeons & Dragons third edition was the "Use Magic Device" skill. This was actually based on an old first-edition, little-used high-level rogue trick of using magical scrolls. People get confused by the name of this skill... maybe it should be called "subvert magic device" or "hack magic device." This skill makes the rogue capable of cheating to make a magical item work that would otherwise require some kind of special criteria (or "security clearance") to operate. To its credit, Dungeons & Dragons Online does provide this skill, and I take full advantage of it... though I think the activation checks are set a little too high.
There are lots of really fun rogue-like verbs that can be implemented by a game system, though not all rogues will bother with all of them: lie, subvert, reveal, steal, cheat, conceal, spy, swindle, fast-talk, infiltrate, forge, entrap, seduce, escape, misdirect, outwit, sneak, disable, intimidate, disarm, mislead, lock, unlock, deceive, bypass, confuse, obfuscate, ensnare, scout, camouflage, trick, incapacitate, assassinate, discover, divert, outmaneuver...
Sorry, I fell asleep on the enumeration, there. Where was I?
Designing Adventures For Rogues
If putting the above into a computer RPG was easy, everyone would be doing it. We'd have RPGs out there now that would sound like the retelling of a classic adventure novel, rather than a play-by-play of a thousand rounds of whack-a-mole. There are some nasty problems:
#1 - The challenge and flow (and FUN) of the game is based upon the idea that the players will engage the obstacles in a traditional manner. Bypassing those challenges and skipping to the reward (a very roguely thing to do) would "ruin" the game. (As a side note, I sidestepped most of one of the more challenging end-game encounters in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines via a maxed-out stealth skill. I should note that while that segment of the game was much easier than it was probably supposed to be, it was also a lot of fun for me than most).
#2 - Too often rogue-oriented tasks are special-cased into the game. This ensures that they are expensive to create (and therefore rare), and will frustrate players whose characters don't have the necessary skills to succeed in the specially coded scenarios, as most players feel entitled to all of the game's content.
#3 - In a multiplayer game, you want to keep the party together doing the same activity in which everyone can participate and have fun. This means downplaying anything that the rogue would best do solo.
#4 - Many rogue-like activities are social. Computers don't do anything resembling human sociality very well. Most CRPGs have just given up on the concept and divided the world into two types of interactive creatures: Those that you fight, and those that stand around waiting to dispense canned prose like a human-shaped vending machine. And for the purpose of generating lots of combat, the players are usually led to spend most of their time in unfriendly territory where engaging in chit-chat with those you come across is just not expected.
#5 - With saved games and easy resurrections / respawning, the high risk / high reward options lack the element of "high risk." There becomes no reason for players NOT to pursue the riskier option.
#6 - Depending upon the game system you are using, many non-combat activities are resolved with a single random check (and maybe not even that --- with saved games, they might effectively be resolved automatically --- the player will just keep restoring until they get a favorable result for anything important). That's not interesting gameplay. Interesting gameplay involves decisions and interaction. Which means complicating things up and adding some kind of mini-game (like the combat mini-game) for specialized roguely (or non-roguely) actions. Note: I'm gonna praise Oblivion here again for doing just that - not that the mini-games were great, but they were a step in the right direction IMO.
#7 - Artificial Intelligence is stupid, and doesn't usually learn from its mistakes. So allowing a player to "outwit" her AI opponents is sorta like giving her a barrel of fish to shoot for the ENTIRE GAME. The same tricks will work over and over again (like the aforementioned traps in Bioware's games) until they become boring. And boring isn't a winning game design element.
In a future article, I will outline some examples I've encountered in previous RPGs (computer, massively multiplayer, and dice-and-paper) that have overcome these challenges (or, in roguely fashion, neatly bypassed them altogether), as well as some ideas that have been bouncing around in my brain for dealing with 'em. And my experience is limited - feel free to help me fill in the gaping, wide holes I've left here. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts and ideas on this!
(Vaguely) related meaningless ponderings:
* RPG Design: The Brute Force Problem
* RPG Design: Why Can't I Get Past the Stupid Door?
* Game Design: Fixing Interactive Storytelling
* The Evolution of Computer RPGs
* RPG Design Seed Challenge
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Labels: Game Design, Roleplaying Games
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It's sounds like the rogue needs access to a command line, a script manual, and the map needs to visually feed back the name of the selected scene object upon request.
Interestingly, the current issue of Order of the Stick is also entitled "It Takes a Thief." That wouldn't have inspired this, would it? ;)
Anyway, I wonder if a good general design principle might not be to design your game around the least straight-forward classes (like rogues) first, then flesh out the more straightforward character archtypes (like fighters) afterwards. Make a simple fighter to test your combat system, a simple mage to test your magic system, etc., but then leave them mostly as placeholders until you've got everything balanced for the sneaky bastards and go back for them later.
Anyway, I wonder if a good general design principle might not be to design your game around the least straight-forward classes (like rogues) first, then flesh out the more straightforward character archtypes (like fighters) afterwards. Make a simple fighter to test your combat system, a simple mage to test your magic system, etc., but then leave them mostly as placeholders until you've got everything balanced for the sneaky bastards and go back for them later.
@Dave: KoDT rawks :) Absolutely brilliant.
@drslinky: Well, there's cheating and there's cheating... :)
@drslinky: Well, there's cheating and there's cheating... :)
@DGM: Nope, didn't see the latest OotS until after I posted this. I thought it was an amusing coincidence, though.
My RPG-In-Design uses a party-based system (yeah, I'm old school...), which makes it a bit more ... I dunno, robust? But it does mean I can't really balance the classes (yes, it is class based... kinda) individually. My trick is making sure the rogue has a real and valuable role in the group, not a second-class-fighter who sometimes detects traps. So I'm coming up with a bunch of hifalutin ideals that may or may not actually survive contact with actual DEVELOPMENT.
My RPG-In-Design uses a party-based system (yeah, I'm old school...), which makes it a bit more ... I dunno, robust? But it does mean I can't really balance the classes (yes, it is class based... kinda) individually. My trick is making sure the rogue has a real and valuable role in the group, not a second-class-fighter who sometimes detects traps. So I'm coming up with a bunch of hifalutin ideals that may or may not actually survive contact with actual DEVELOPMENT.
I had an interesting idea: what if the rogue could jump ahead in a dungeon until it reaches a roadblock requiring a mage/fighter/entire party, and work backwards to eliminate opposition by surprise and backstab while the main party is hacking up the beasties from the front? Then they meet up in the middle and get past that boundary together, to lather, rinse, repeat.
This would allow "solo" activity while still having the rogue be relevant to the group, who would still be engaged.
Ben
This would allow "solo" activity while still having the rogue be relevant to the group, who would still be engaged.
Ben
If it's a single-player game, I could see some possible interface issues, but I'll bet that idea could be developed.
After all, if you replaced the word "rogue" with "scout" or "light cavalry", and replaced "mage/fighter/entire party" with "Armor and heavy infantry," you've got the basics of tactical movement right there.
After all, if you replaced the word "rogue" with "scout" or "light cavalry", and replaced "mage/fighter/entire party" with "Armor and heavy infantry," you've got the basics of tactical movement right there.
@coyote: Why bend the rules when you can break them and listen to people wine about it on forums. :) I have always enjoyed party based rpg's as well.
In Shadows Over Riva (Realms of Arcania 3), there was a spot in the game where you had to separate your partry. Someone had to hold the lever to let the party in and to let them out. You could explore with either group.
Realms of Arcania was big on you needing nearly every skill in the game to complete the game in its entirety. You had six characters and you had to build them wisely. Using this mentality, and a lot of man hours, a person could possibly make an rpg that taylored to every class, and actually made the game more complete with a variety of characters. Extra stories, more loot, etc.
In Shadows Over Riva (Realms of Arcania 3), there was a spot in the game where you had to separate your partry. Someone had to hold the lever to let the party in and to let them out. You could explore with either group.
Realms of Arcania was big on you needing nearly every skill in the game to complete the game in its entirety. You had six characters and you had to build them wisely. Using this mentality, and a lot of man hours, a person could possibly make an rpg that taylored to every class, and actually made the game more complete with a variety of characters. Extra stories, more loot, etc.
Do you really, really need a "rogue" (in the sense you're using it) in a CRPG? Really? It's barely even possible. Rogues are about thinking outside of the box, and the computer is the box. The computer can't handle player freedom beyond a certain degree limited entirely by how much time you take away from your *insert system here* system to add to it. There are a finite number of things you can do. If the player thought of it and the game designer didn't, then either the game can't do it and the player is annoyed or the game wasn't built to handle it and the whole thing gets circumvented; the player skips chapters of the game, NPCs who were supposed to die don't and visa versa when the plot is only written to accomodate for them one way and the dead end up returning a chapter later because they aren't dead, the player ends up at the game-end dungeon balanced for level 40 at level 18. Or more likely, a combination of the two--a can of worms is opened with a combination of things the computer totally can't handle and things that shouldn't be possible (imagine, if you will, using a clipping cheat to get on top of a wall that's supposed to be the scenery in a FPS. On your left now is the place you just came from at the beginning of the chapter, a wall, and then the end of the level; on your right is the space beyond the level which the player wasn't supposed to be capable of ever seeing thanks to the wall you're standing on top of; at most the skybox extends down there with no floor or further solid objects on that side of the wall and more likely it's black, or heaven forbid looking at it crashes the game because it doesn't know what it looks like). Most of all, the computer can't be another human being. It has to be preprogrammed with how it reacts and will react the same way every time. That one trick you found with the advanced physics system that wasn't prescripted where you placed a grenade next to a dumpster to make it fall on those two guards? Yeah, you're gonna be able to knock the same dumpster on the same guards ten times in a row, or at least try to. The worst thing is that anything short of outright dedicating your game to player freedom just leads to players minmaxing their path through the game, possibly with guides and possibly trial and error.
It's possible to make a game of possibilities and creativity. I'd call nethack an example of that game; it's not a game about beating up the boss, it's a game about how you prepare for and then cheat the boss. If you look at the spoiler for defeating Demogorgon because he gets his own level in the Slash-em mod, the author stresses like hell NOT to take him head on, NOT to go down in honorable combat. It's possible, but you're much better off hitting him with a cockatrice corpse, or putting him to sleep as a drow, clubbing him with a potion of paralysis, polymorphing into a black dragon and disintegrating him, etc. Just dooon't charge at him guns ablazing or you'll die. The fact that there's no prewritten "right" path serves to obscure the fact that it's a game about cheating the path you're prevented and making your own. (Yes, I've been playing a lot of that game recently)
A different, more recent example would be Geneforge 1-4. More structured, less freedom, but even so, the game's selling point is you can ally with any or no side, excell in anything including nonviolence, create a mini-army of handpicked party members (of any size and possibly with half of them being expendable or even temporary suicide units), and if you want you can do the whole game without fighting.
But it's hard. You've said many times that a game can only afford a few strong suits, and after that you stretch it too thin. Making a game which is a good environment for a rogue-like mentality defines the game; save maybe graphics, you'll spend more time on that than everything else combined if you don't want the player to ever feel artificially constricted. The combat system in Geneforge? It's well balanced and has a unique mechanic in the dual MP meters and variable party, and I've never seen fear used effectively as a mechanic except here, but it's still somewhat generic. It wasn't job 1. It's fun but they didn't reinvent combat, and I'd have gotten bored if I hadn't decided on some self-imposed save starvation. Nethack combat, when you weren't "cheating", was the most basic imaginable; they've got a linear progression of spells in the one tree devoted to offense, healing, escape, etc, basic spellpoints, and your weapon rolls all happen without your input. If you aren't using limited special abilities or magic items the most advanced combat techniques used were abusing speed and always backing into halls against a group. Contrast this with, for a random example, Guild Wars. Little player freedom and interactivity, but man, their combat system is good. You have to actually THINK and MAKE CHOICES, both before and after entering the dungeon, and (as their box will not hesitate to tell you) you get hundreds of abilities to pick from to create your build. The tradeoff, though, is that you progress the on-rails story in a set order and you can't go off scaling walls and picking locks to escape said rails. GW doesn't pretend to have a rogue class, just a ranger and later assasin who happen to occasionally act like them.
Maybe that's the key. Though it sounds cool, when you call someone rogue you create the impression that he should be doing things that you really shouldn't be doing on a computer. Maybe the solution is to just not have it. The average RPG's rogue acts like either a ranger, assasin or both; why not just call him that?
It's possible to make a game of possibilities and creativity. I'd call nethack an example of that game; it's not a game about beating up the boss, it's a game about how you prepare for and then cheat the boss. If you look at the spoiler for defeating Demogorgon because he gets his own level in the Slash-em mod, the author stresses like hell NOT to take him head on, NOT to go down in honorable combat. It's possible, but you're much better off hitting him with a cockatrice corpse, or putting him to sleep as a drow, clubbing him with a potion of paralysis, polymorphing into a black dragon and disintegrating him, etc. Just dooon't charge at him guns ablazing or you'll die. The fact that there's no prewritten "right" path serves to obscure the fact that it's a game about cheating the path you're prevented and making your own. (Yes, I've been playing a lot of that game recently)
A different, more recent example would be Geneforge 1-4. More structured, less freedom, but even so, the game's selling point is you can ally with any or no side, excell in anything including nonviolence, create a mini-army of handpicked party members (of any size and possibly with half of them being expendable or even temporary suicide units), and if you want you can do the whole game without fighting.
But it's hard. You've said many times that a game can only afford a few strong suits, and after that you stretch it too thin. Making a game which is a good environment for a rogue-like mentality defines the game; save maybe graphics, you'll spend more time on that than everything else combined if you don't want the player to ever feel artificially constricted. The combat system in Geneforge? It's well balanced and has a unique mechanic in the dual MP meters and variable party, and I've never seen fear used effectively as a mechanic except here, but it's still somewhat generic. It wasn't job 1. It's fun but they didn't reinvent combat, and I'd have gotten bored if I hadn't decided on some self-imposed save starvation. Nethack combat, when you weren't "cheating", was the most basic imaginable; they've got a linear progression of spells in the one tree devoted to offense, healing, escape, etc, basic spellpoints, and your weapon rolls all happen without your input. If you aren't using limited special abilities or magic items the most advanced combat techniques used were abusing speed and always backing into halls against a group. Contrast this with, for a random example, Guild Wars. Little player freedom and interactivity, but man, their combat system is good. You have to actually THINK and MAKE CHOICES, both before and after entering the dungeon, and (as their box will not hesitate to tell you) you get hundreds of abilities to pick from to create your build. The tradeoff, though, is that you progress the on-rails story in a set order and you can't go off scaling walls and picking locks to escape said rails. GW doesn't pretend to have a rogue class, just a ranger and later assasin who happen to occasionally act like them.
Maybe that's the key. Though it sounds cool, when you call someone rogue you create the impression that he should be doing things that you really shouldn't be doing on a computer. Maybe the solution is to just not have it. The average RPG's rogue acts like either a ranger, assasin or both; why not just call him that?
@Dr. Slinky:
I never played the Arkania series. Now I wish I had :) (Hmmm... DOSBox, finding an old copy.... *grin* Like I don't already have a BACKLOG of games to finish!)
The one I'm remembering most clearly was Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. One segment of the game was VASTLY more rewarding in terms of XP if you had really beefed up your social skills. Of course, if you took the extra experience points and put them back into your social skills... assuming, for example, that this WASN'T about the only part of the game where lots of talking and convincing of people was rewarding... you'd be in a world of hurt later. Basically, it felt like a refund on the XP you put into building those social skills so you could build up your flagging combat skills.
But it wasn't a party-based RPG.
I never played the Arkania series. Now I wish I had :) (Hmmm... DOSBox, finding an old copy.... *grin* Like I don't already have a BACKLOG of games to finish!)
The one I'm remembering most clearly was Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. One segment of the game was VASTLY more rewarding in terms of XP if you had really beefed up your social skills. Of course, if you took the extra experience points and put them back into your social skills... assuming, for example, that this WASN'T about the only part of the game where lots of talking and convincing of people was rewarding... you'd be in a world of hurt later. Basically, it felt like a refund on the XP you put into building those social skills so you could build up your flagging combat skills.
But it wasn't a party-based RPG.
@Brickman:
Excellent points. And I think your conclusion is perfectly valid. In fact, I think that's what several game designers *HAVE* done - getting rid of the rogue - but they've still left some sort of rogue role in the game in name only. But that frustrates those of us who are rogue fans, who find out that the "rogue" is really just a sub-par fighter with a sneak attack.
I think you make a case yourself about how it can be done. And it has been done by games before (at least part-way).
One answer to the question of how to accomodate multiple play styles is a more organic system. Sure - the computer is far more limited than a live game master. And the whole style of gameplay is a frustration to many game designers, who usually feel that any way to circumvent their challenges and obstacles is a bug that must be fixed before release.
But I think it's a solveable problem. Which I'll talk about in part 3. And I think you've talked about possible solutions already. A more organic, open-ended game system, for one thing. Obviously, the rogue's abilities are going to have to be limited in many ways, too - it's just the nature of the beast. Limiting them in the RIGHT way might be the key.
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Excellent points. And I think your conclusion is perfectly valid. In fact, I think that's what several game designers *HAVE* done - getting rid of the rogue - but they've still left some sort of rogue role in the game in name only. But that frustrates those of us who are rogue fans, who find out that the "rogue" is really just a sub-par fighter with a sneak attack.
I think you make a case yourself about how it can be done. And it has been done by games before (at least part-way).
One answer to the question of how to accomodate multiple play styles is a more organic system. Sure - the computer is far more limited than a live game master. And the whole style of gameplay is a frustration to many game designers, who usually feel that any way to circumvent their challenges and obstacles is a bug that must be fixed before release.
But I think it's a solveable problem. Which I'll talk about in part 3. And I think you've talked about possible solutions already. A more organic, open-ended game system, for one thing. Obviously, the rogue's abilities are going to have to be limited in many ways, too - it's just the nature of the beast. Limiting them in the RIGHT way might be the key.
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