Sunday, April 01, 2007
Jeff Vogel Gives Innovation Another Chance, Plans Nethergate Remake
About a year ago, Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb Software (probably the most popular indie CRPG company around) told the sad story of Nethergate - his attempt at innovation, of trying something different, fresh, and new.
It didn't go so well. In fact, it went considerably worse than well. In his words, "And what happened when I released it? How were sales? Well, in gaming terms, I got pwned. It got good reviews for an indie game, and a lot of people really loved it. I didn't lose my shirt. But it sold much worse than the standard fantasy game that came before it."
He eventually got over his fear of innovation and created the Geneforge series, which "sells OK, but still not as good as the basic fantasy stuff." Nethergate was his case study to indies and RPG fans in general that most game developers would LOVE to innovate, but they tend to get ignored by their audience when they try.
So I was very surprised to hear, after the tale of failure and heartbreak that was Nethergate, that Jeff was planning a major revision of of the 1998 RPG, entitled "Nethergate Resurrection," scheduled for release this summer. What's the deal? Wasn't innovation bad, the first game a dismal flop, etc. etc. etc.? Why the change of heart?
So I asked him. He kindly responded (and gave me permission to post his response):
I went back and looked at our records and crunched the numbers and found out that Nethergate, while disappointing, was, over the loooong run, a profitable title. Easily successful enough to merit 3 months of work, especially since the alternative was it disappearing forever. (It won't run on Vista or Intel Macs).Is this a case of passion outweighing profit? Or an innovative, "labor of love" project truly generating enough over the long term to make it worthwhile (and worth more than spending three months on yet-another-standard-fantasy RPG)? It sounds to me like a little bit of both.
Also, what can I say? We love the game. It's cool and innovative enough to continue to exist.
I don't know if this can be applied as any kind of general lesson for indies other than to note that sometimes even weaker titles still have value, particularly over the long term. And maybe even over the long term, innovation and going for the art / passion factor might not hurt as bad as we think.
(Vaguely) related snark:
* Why Does Jeff Vogel Hate RPGs?
* Where Is Indie Innovation?
* 2006 Indie RPGs of the Year Announced
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Labels: Biz, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 11:00 AM (Permalink)
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Interesting...I like interviews with Vogel, they're always very straightforward and revealing.
I never played Nethergate, but I remember reading that interview way back when. Aside from the setting, what was so innovative about the game? Was there something about the gameplay or design that was really innovative? I'd be interested to know, because the interview doesn't really go into specifics.
But it almost sounds like the main innovation was just that it was an RPG that didn't take place in some Tolkien-esque fantasy world. To me, there has to be more...that in itself doesn't sound like a real leap in innovation.
I never played Nethergate, but I remember reading that interview way back when. Aside from the setting, what was so innovative about the game? Was there something about the gameplay or design that was really innovative? I'd be interested to know, because the interview doesn't really go into specifics.
But it almost sounds like the main innovation was just that it was an RPG that didn't take place in some Tolkien-esque fantasy world. To me, there has to be more...that in itself doesn't sound like a real leap in innovation.
Well, I haven't played Nethergate either (hello, y'all, let me introduce myself as Part Of The Problem), but it did also have an element where you got to play both sides of the conflict --- once as a Celt, once as a Roman.
I think I'll have to try out the new version when it comes out. Maybe these three months will give him a chance to sexy it up a little bit.
I think I'll have to try out the new version when it comes out. Maybe these three months will give him a chance to sexy it up a little bit.
I have played Nethergate. It's a new universe, new roleplaying system (GURPS-style skills and rules) and has a lot of nice content to it. It's sort of like a mix between Exile and a more traditional pen and paper campaign, and certainly not like a lot of other RPGs.
That given, while I do certainly enjoy the content of the game, I unfortunately think Jeff may be getting into a rut with too many isometric 2D RPGs.
I remember when he originally pitched his idea to go to isometric games to a magazine; he made reference to gameplay that involved more vertical movement (e.g. elevators, stairs, towers) than the games thus far have contained. It would be nice to have, if not full 3D graphics, at the very least a 3D "world" with an understanding of vertical movement.
That given, while I do certainly enjoy the content of the game, I unfortunately think Jeff may be getting into a rut with too many isometric 2D RPGs.
I remember when he originally pitched his idea to go to isometric games to a magazine; he made reference to gameplay that involved more vertical movement (e.g. elevators, stairs, towers) than the games thus far have contained. It would be nice to have, if not full 3D graphics, at the very least a 3D "world" with an understanding of vertical movement.
Well, I haven't played Nethergate either (hello, y'all, let me introduce myself as Part Of The Problem), but it did also have an element where you got to play both sides of the conflict --- once as a Celt, once as a Roman.
Hmm...Warcraft? Starcraft? Granted, those aren't RPGs, but the concept of playing both sides of a conflict isn't exactly innovative.
Vogel has made some great isometric 2D RPGs, and I think the Mac platform in particular (and indies in general) should be thankful for that. But without knowing more -- and I should look into it -- I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish with that one.
Hmm...Warcraft? Starcraft? Granted, those aren't RPGs, but the concept of playing both sides of a conflict isn't exactly innovative.
Vogel has made some great isometric 2D RPGs, and I think the Mac platform in particular (and indies in general) should be thankful for that. But without knowing more -- and I should look into it -- I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish with that one.
Well, I'm all for out-of-the-blue innovation, don't get me wrong. But I'm also a believer in the old saying that "The key to creativity is to hide your sources."
Or maybe not hiding them, but finding new uses for old ideas.
Ravuya might have a much better idea of how original / innovative the game really was. I don't necessarily need (or even want) to have my socks blown off by something I'd never even conceived of before. So I'll at least give it some points for leaving the comfort zone of Generic Fantasy World, But Here Water Flows Backwards...
Or maybe not hiding them, but finding new uses for old ideas.
Ravuya might have a much better idea of how original / innovative the game really was. I don't necessarily need (or even want) to have my socks blown off by something I'd never even conceived of before. So I'll at least give it some points for leaving the comfort zone of Generic Fantasy World, But Here Water Flows Backwards...
Oh, it's very innovative compared to other CRPGs in a lot of ways.
Regardless, it's fun.
My only concern is that Jeff has just released too many isometric RPGs after it. I'm sure he's getting tired of it too.
Regardless, it's fun.
My only concern is that Jeff has just released too many isometric RPGs after it. I'm sure he's getting tired of it too.
Or maybe not hiding them, but finding new uses for old ideas.
Well, I guess I can't really argue with that, all things considered...
Well, I guess I can't really argue with that, all things considered...
[i]My only concern is that Jeff has just released too many isometric RPGs after it. I'm sure he's getting tired of it too.[/i]
It sure sounds like he's tired, from his comments in his "View From the Bottom" columns.
I don't have a problem with necessarily the isometric perspective or gameplay. While it has some inherent limitations, I think there's an infinite number of games that could be done with that --- and even if only a small percentage of that is GOOD GAMES, that's an infinite quantity, too.
But I wonder if he feels constrained not only by the engine but also his audience. Clearly, his audience didn't follow him wholeheartedly into ancient Europe for Nethergate. I wonder if its a case of him feeling forced into a particular formula, which he is only allowed to modify so much per game...
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It sure sounds like he's tired, from his comments in his "View From the Bottom" columns.
I don't have a problem with necessarily the isometric perspective or gameplay. While it has some inherent limitations, I think there's an infinite number of games that could be done with that --- and even if only a small percentage of that is GOOD GAMES, that's an infinite quantity, too.
But I wonder if he feels constrained not only by the engine but also his audience. Clearly, his audience didn't follow him wholeheartedly into ancient Europe for Nethergate. I wonder if its a case of him feeling forced into a particular formula, which he is only allowed to modify so much per game...
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