Friday, April 13, 2007
RPG Design: Quest Abuse
What was the first CRPG with an actual "quest system?" Was it Might & Magic?
I mean, sure, lots of games had quests prior to that... but they were principally the "main" quest, with maybe some mechanical stages in between that followed a natural order. Get the secret password to go past the silver snake, prove yourself worthy in some way, pay me this much money and I'll give you what you need to save the world (hey, just because the world is ending doesn't mean capitalism should preceed it in death, does it?), obtain the vehicle that allows you to go where you couldn't go before, etc.But then came along quest systems, and - on the surface at least - they were awesome. The adventure could now be broken down into more easily digestible bite-sized chunks, and the player was less likely to become lost in the game wondering what to do ( a show stopper that caused me to lose interest in finishing more than one game ), and the player could be sent galavanting across the world on (multiple times) rather than hanging out near the starting city leveling up on killing giant rats and wolves.
Except they would anyway, but that's besides the point.
In fact, certain games ( Neverwinter Nights expansions, and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines) even did away with the time-honored, old-skool D&D tradition of awarding experience points for body counts altogether, rewarding you strictly by the completion of quests. Cool! Ya know, you do this right, and the poor player will never have to level up by killing tons of giant rats ever again!
And what kind of quests do we get?
Kill X giant rats please, brave sir hero. Go kill me twelve bandits and bring me their official Banditry Club membership buttons as proof. Please deliver this basket of goodies to the little ol' lady out in the woods, and bonus points for killing the Big Bad Wolf on your way. Hey, I'm too freaking LAZY to get up off my NPC butt and pick up some medicine to save my sick kid, would you mind picking it up for me sometime this century on your way to save the world from certain doom? Thankyou, Thankyouverymuch.
Okay. Aside from the nasty abuse of quest systems by developers for creating "filler" quests (hey, it didn't start with quest systems --- Ultima VI managed to create that whole pirate-map-filler crap without the benefit of a real quest system), there's something a little more insidious at work here. The thing is, your average quest presentation really doesn't make you feel very adventurous or heroic.
It makes you feel like an employee. Or a contract laborer. A gofer.
It's like becoming an adventurer means joining a temp agency or something. Suddenly everybody and their cousin knows that they can get cheap work out of the chump in chain mail.
This sort of thing has become a joke in "dice and paper" games. It was common enough to go beyond cliche. The DM would start, "Okay, so you are all sitting in a tavern, and this guy comes up to you..." It's still used, too often, but experienced players groan over it.
While it's not always something that happens in a tavern (although that's still a popular place -- Dungeons & Dragons Online in particular uses that convention, though I think it's intended more as an "in joke"), we're still using it (and overusing it, and abusing it) in CRPGs. Now, I admit, it's kinda nice getting an in-game journal filled with Hopefully Interesting Things To Do. I loved how, during the late-early stages of Baldur's Gate II, I was accumulating quests much faster than I was finishing them. I didn't have to worry about getting bored. And, to BG2's credit, most of them were pretty interesting and several had a nifty little twist (I think Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines goes to the head of the class for having twisted quests, though. Maybe it comes from having a twisted license to begin with). And once in a while, it's not such a big deal. I mean, the Seven Samurai is a classic movie for a reason. A little bit of "honest work" (or dishonest work)
But my vision of roleplaying games is that you are more-or-less a self-made hero. You don't wait for adventure to drop into your lap, you go out seeking it! You don't wait for an engraved invitation (with a promise of 250 gold pieces in payment) to go out exploring the Pits of Unending Peril --- they're gonna have to put an army between you and it to keep you away! And then only until you've gained a couple more levels! Right?
Right?
While quests systems have grown a little bit in complexity, they are still effectively the same. I think that's an area where RPGs need to evolve. And maybe, as I mentioned earlier, by going back just a little bit. Why do we have quest systems? What problems were they designed to solve? Are they still solving that problem? Have we gotten stuck in a rut and just handle things the way we do simply because that's how every game has been handling them for the last decade?
Sure, players - just like most heroes in any story - need a little nudge. A push in the right direction. Often more than once. But it can be handled very with much more subtlety. Even without changing the scripted-quest systems currently in use very much.
Rather than NPCs sending the players on quests, what if they constantly warn the player away? "Whatever you do," they tell you, "don't go near those castle ruins! Those are DANGEROUS!"
It wouldn't take much more than that to have me make a beeline towards the castle ruins in a game.
And rather than coming back to an NPC for payment for that cloak you took from the Big Bad Evil Guy inside the castle, you instead learn (and choose) that the cloak once belonged to Lady Elsie's Father, whom the BBEG murdered years ago. By returning it to her (not that she's expecting it, mind you), you win not 25 gold pieces, but her unending gratitude, and the admiration of the entire village?
Which might have more tangeable results than everyone calling you "The Hero of Kvatch" or whatnot, but why shouldn't fame and honor be as much a part of a roleplaying game as experience points and gold?
Maybe you don't even need to return it to the lady herself. Give it to anyone in the village, and they'll give it to her for you. And then you get a rep for being humble as well. Hey, shades of Ultima IV's virtue system here...
Or you could just keep the cloak, and sell it in some remote town that never heard of Lady Elsie's father or the BBEG, and nobody knows differently...
We've managed to arrange for some more open-ended content, so why not some more open-ended quest systems? Quests where the player is the instigator, the mover and the shaker, and the NPCs just kinda keep up as best as the programming can manage? Quests where the goals are actually general objectives rather than lockstepped processes? Quests where the player is given just enough "carrot and stick" to make sure they don't get bored or lost, but are otherwise given the freedom to forge their own destiny, to tread the jeweled thrones of the world beneath their sandaled feet?
Or am I alone in getting tired of being told to "go fetch" in my entertainment?
(Vaguely) related incomprehensibleness:
* RPG Design: The Brute Force Approach
* Ye Olde Save Game Debate
* RPG Design: Why Can't I Get Past the Stupid Door?
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Labels: Frayed Knights, Game Design, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 8:13 AM (Permalink)
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It even seems quite doable to construct a game like this modding/extending an existing system, no? Maybe not as dynamic as we want, but certainly to capture the flavor of being a "hero" instead of "pest control"
Chill - Yep - that was actually going through my head when I was coming up with the angle and title. Part of me wanted to call it, "Why Quest Systems Suck," but that's not really the issue. They don't suck - they aren't great and progress should be made in that area - but they really do add to games.
The problem is that they are used poorly. Or, as I said in the title, abused.
But even in some games that just drive me nuts with their incessent "FedEx" missions, there are usually a handful of quests where I think, "Ah - THAT felt right!"
In fact, that whole approach of "Don't go there, you'll be sorry" actually does get used in an early D&D Online quest. Unfortunately, its buried in a lot of "Help, my (insert possession or relation) has been captured by (insert intelligent evil humanoid)! Help me!" quests.
The problem is that they are used poorly. Or, as I said in the title, abused.
But even in some games that just drive me nuts with their incessent "FedEx" missions, there are usually a handful of quests where I think, "Ah - THAT felt right!"
In fact, that whole approach of "Don't go there, you'll be sorry" actually does get used in an early D&D Online quest. Unfortunately, its buried in a lot of "Help, my (insert possession or relation) has been captured by (insert intelligent evil humanoid)! Help me!" quests.
>> It makes you feel like an employee. Or a contract laborer. A gofer.
This truth rung true in Sacred. Sacred was a great game that reminded me a little of Interplays original Lord of the Rings. There was a big map, lots of things to explore, and the map just kept going. The problem was, the quests were endless, and unfortunately the best way to make money.
I even found myself completing quests I didn't know were quests, and feeling compelled to finish the quest that I didn't want in the first place, which in turn takes me miles away from where I want to be.
>> "Whatever you do," they tell you, "don't go near those castle ruins! Those are DANGEROUS!"
This is funny. It is like every NPC views you as their NASCAR. They're thinking to themselves, "oh hes gona kill himself for sure this time."
>> ... , but certainly to capture the flavor of being a "hero" instead of "pest control"
This is funny. I remember the first real quest in Might and Magic Worlds of Xeen involved ridding the city of giant insects. :-)
This truth rung true in Sacred. Sacred was a great game that reminded me a little of Interplays original Lord of the Rings. There was a big map, lots of things to explore, and the map just kept going. The problem was, the quests were endless, and unfortunately the best way to make money.
I even found myself completing quests I didn't know were quests, and feeling compelled to finish the quest that I didn't want in the first place, which in turn takes me miles away from where I want to be.
>> "Whatever you do," they tell you, "don't go near those castle ruins! Those are DANGEROUS!"
This is funny. It is like every NPC views you as their NASCAR. They're thinking to themselves, "oh hes gona kill himself for sure this time."
>> ... , but certainly to capture the flavor of being a "hero" instead of "pest control"
This is funny. I remember the first real quest in Might and Magic Worlds of Xeen involved ridding the city of giant insects. :-)
Ernest Adams wrote about the feeling of being nothing more than a work for hire instead of a hero in Letter from a Dungeon back in 2000: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/designers_notebook/20000126.htm
The problem with winning the "respect and admiration of the entire village" is that you have to be able to actually do something with it. We all know what you can do with gold or experience, but not many games do much with reputation and social interaction beyond scripted responses. And I have a theory to the effect that such things are inherently more difficult than combat to create robust systems for, which is why you don't see more of them.
# posted by 
: April 15, 2007 5:44 AM
: April 15, 2007 5:44 AM
I've been re-feeding my WoW addiction of late, and this is a game which definitely suffers from what you're talking about. In fact, it's my number one complaint with WoW: Not only are the quests almost universally of the "kill # of X" or "collect # of Y" variety, but they are deliberately designed to become more tedious and laborious the more powerful you become. When the game should be becoming cooler, it's instead becoming more and more of a grind.
My brother calls this "training for tedium".
The frustrating thing with WoW is, every so often, you'll catch a quest thread which has more to offer.
Oh, sure, ultimately all quests are going to boil down to "kill", "get", "take", or "use". But there's a difference between an endless repetition of "kill X rats/goblins/centaurs because they're threatening the village" and "go retrieve the battleplans from the kobold village" followed by a revelation of those battleplans and a quest which proceeds from them.
In short, there's a difference between tedium and plot.
(The REALLY frustrating thing with WoW is how many of these interesting quest threads simply... dead end. Because the designers never bothered to finish designing the cooler quests.)
My brother calls this "training for tedium".
The frustrating thing with WoW is, every so often, you'll catch a quest thread which has more to offer.
Oh, sure, ultimately all quests are going to boil down to "kill", "get", "take", or "use". But there's a difference between an endless repetition of "kill X rats/goblins/centaurs because they're threatening the village" and "go retrieve the battleplans from the kobold village" followed by a revelation of those battleplans and a quest which proceeds from them.
In short, there's a difference between tedium and plot.
(The REALLY frustrating thing with WoW is how many of these interesting quest threads simply... dead end. Because the designers never bothered to finish designing the cooler quests.)
Ernest Adams wrote about the feeling of being nothing more than a work for hire instead of a hero in Letter from a Dungeon
You are right! I totally forgot about that one until I saw it in your blog. You are right.
not many games do much with reputation and social interaction beyond scripted responses. And I have a theory to the effect that such things are inherently more difficult than combat to create robust systems for, which is why you don't see more of them.
I think that's pretty dead-on.
What it usually comes down to is simply binary decisions on the part of NPCs determining whether or not to "trust" you with more quests / information based upon that reputation.
I think another problem with it is game balance. Potentially, having everyone suddenly like you and bend over backwards to assist you could make the game too easy, just at the point where it is supposed to become more challenging. But I don't think that should be stopping any designers from trying.
You are right! I totally forgot about that one until I saw it in your blog. You are right.
not many games do much with reputation and social interaction beyond scripted responses. And I have a theory to the effect that such things are inherently more difficult than combat to create robust systems for, which is why you don't see more of them.
I think that's pretty dead-on.
What it usually comes down to is simply binary decisions on the part of NPCs determining whether or not to "trust" you with more quests / information based upon that reputation.
I think another problem with it is game balance. Potentially, having everyone suddenly like you and bend over backwards to assist you could make the game too easy, just at the point where it is supposed to become more challenging. But I don't think that should be stopping any designers from trying.
Oh, sure, ultimately all quests are going to boil down to "kill", "get", "take", or "use". But there's a difference between an endless repetition of "kill X rats/goblins/centaurs because they're threatening the village" and "go retrieve the battleplans from the kobold village" followed by a revelation of those battleplans and a quest which proceeds from them.
Hmm.... maybe more variations on verbs would help.
But ultimately, my biggest beef is simply that these quests aren't quests so much as assignments. Tasks. Jobs. Which kinda flies in the face of what's supposed to be heroic activities.
But you are right - MMO's are probably the worst for lame "quests." I guess they are counting on the fact that doing anything with friends automatically reduces the lameness factor. But dang they make you wade through a ton of make-work!
Hmm.... maybe more variations on verbs would help.
But ultimately, my biggest beef is simply that these quests aren't quests so much as assignments. Tasks. Jobs. Which kinda flies in the face of what's supposed to be heroic activities.
But you are right - MMO's are probably the worst for lame "quests." I guess they are counting on the fact that doing anything with friends automatically reduces the lameness factor. But dang they make you wade through a ton of make-work!
Coyote,
I think another problem with it is game balance. Potentially, having everyone suddenly like you and bend over backwards to assist you could make the game too easy, just at the point where it is supposed to become more challenging.
Well, it would depend on what you got as opposed to what you needed. The local baker isn't going to bankrupt himself to feed you, but he might give you a few free loaves of bread. The tailor might offer to make you a new suit (giving a small but meaningful reaction bonus) at a discount. And so on.
A bunch of small favors which add up could be reward enough, even if the peasants can't give you an uber-weapon and a chest-full of gold. Combine that with further quests (or other optional content) which are only given to you based on trust and reputation, and we might have something...
You know, these conversations might be more fruitful if they weren't cut short by the topic scrolling down and then off the front page. Are you actually going to put up some forums at any point?
I think another problem with it is game balance. Potentially, having everyone suddenly like you and bend over backwards to assist you could make the game too easy, just at the point where it is supposed to become more challenging.
Well, it would depend on what you got as opposed to what you needed. The local baker isn't going to bankrupt himself to feed you, but he might give you a few free loaves of bread. The tailor might offer to make you a new suit (giving a small but meaningful reaction bonus) at a discount. And so on.
A bunch of small favors which add up could be reward enough, even if the peasants can't give you an uber-weapon and a chest-full of gold. Combine that with further quests (or other optional content) which are only given to you based on trust and reputation, and we might have something...
You know, these conversations might be more fruitful if they weren't cut short by the topic scrolling down and then off the front page. Are you actually going to put up some forums at any point?
# posted by : April 15, 2007 2:14 PM
: April 15, 2007 2:14 PM
I don't know, I think that a modifier on the prices of items/services/etc within the town based on whether or not they like you is pretty easy and allows plenty of room for real, "usable" rewards that don't involve being handed 50 gold for killing ten goblins. Maybe even, I don't know, make the merchants give the town hero reasonable rates rather than the stupid "Buying costs twice what you sell for" (occasionally subject to charisma modifiers, but still designed so you always get a bum deal) junk most RPGs use--maybe the adventurer who's respected by the town for doing whatever good deed it was unpaid gets to buy at a 10% discount from the fresh adventurer and then the one who stopped the goblins from raiding the town buys at only a 20% markup from the sell price. Or after you rescue the inkeeper's daughter or his friend's daughter or whatever you can sleep there for free forever and get free breakfasts too. With the excessive ammount of markup charged for absolutely everything in an RPG character's life there should be plenty of nonbinary ways of showing appreciation/trust.
# posted by : April 15, 2007 2:20 PM
: April 15, 2007 2:20 PM
I'd also add that not everyone has to like you for the same actions. Maybe some folk in town were in bed with that BBEG, or just don't like Elsie and her family. If getting in good with one group also causes complications with others that you have to deal with, the balance problem is suddenly less of a problem...
# posted by : April 15, 2007 2:54 PM
: April 15, 2007 2:54 PM
You know, these conversations might be more fruitful if they weren't cut short by the topic scrolling down and then off the front page. Are you actually going to put up some forums at any point?
That's the plan. Sometime this year. Probably shortly after I get Apocalypse Cow out the door. There's just way too much good information appearing in comments, and I hate seeing them get lost and forgotten.
With the excessive ammount of markup charged for absolutely everything in an RPG character's life there should be plenty of nonbinary ways of showing appreciation/trust.
True - but usually by that stage of the game, money becomes increasingly useless to the PCs, particularly for things like renting an inn room. Maybe for that +5 Sword of World Domination... but I've got a whole half-written rant about that already pending... :)
If getting in good with one group also causes complications with others that you have to deal with, the balance problem is suddenly less of a problem...
Right. A good multi-dimensional faction system. One of those things that Oblivion lost from its prequels...
That's the plan. Sometime this year. Probably shortly after I get Apocalypse Cow out the door. There's just way too much good information appearing in comments, and I hate seeing them get lost and forgotten.
With the excessive ammount of markup charged for absolutely everything in an RPG character's life there should be plenty of nonbinary ways of showing appreciation/trust.
True - but usually by that stage of the game, money becomes increasingly useless to the PCs, particularly for things like renting an inn room. Maybe for that +5 Sword of World Domination... but I've got a whole half-written rant about that already pending... :)
If getting in good with one group also causes complications with others that you have to deal with, the balance problem is suddenly less of a problem...
Right. A good multi-dimensional faction system. One of those things that Oblivion lost from its prequels...
Yeah, the whole "by the endgame you have more gold than the king himself but anything still useful costs a mint and a half" is its own problem entirely; a byproduct of the way the "steady progression" means you're exponentially stronger by endgame than start. Which you ranted on before I think. And while there's plenty of alternate paths for how leveling works I'm yet to see an example of any real length that doesn't do this.
# posted by : April 15, 2007 6:50 PM
: April 15, 2007 6:50 PM
I think another problem with it is game balance. Potentially, having everyone suddenly like you and bend over backwards to assist you could make the game too easy, just at the point where it is supposed to become more challenging.
I think an interesting way of handling that (besides the multi-dimensional faction system) is making reputation add responsabilities, not just perks. Like in real life. Being MD of a company generally means you have more on your shoulders, a heavier burden than, say, a junior clerk. So being the archmage of the mages guild shouldn't just be about getting free alchemy ingredients. It should actually make things more difficult I think. Maybe rival factions send assassins after you. Maybe a "quest" which should be easy is made more difficult because of the guild politics (we can't have the head of the guild be seen to be mucking about with peasants!) Basically, it all comes down to making the player feel the "realities" of their rank. I liked the way that in BG2, becoming head of the thieves guild, you had to manage the operations of the guilds members. Fleshing that out a bit could really help I think, make the player feel like a position of authority in a guild actually allows them to influence the guilds policies, and deal with the repurcusions.
I think an interesting way of handling that (besides the multi-dimensional faction system) is making reputation add responsabilities, not just perks. Like in real life. Being MD of a company generally means you have more on your shoulders, a heavier burden than, say, a junior clerk. So being the archmage of the mages guild shouldn't just be about getting free alchemy ingredients. It should actually make things more difficult I think. Maybe rival factions send assassins after you. Maybe a "quest" which should be easy is made more difficult because of the guild politics (we can't have the head of the guild be seen to be mucking about with peasants!) Basically, it all comes down to making the player feel the "realities" of their rank. I liked the way that in BG2, becoming head of the thieves guild, you had to manage the operations of the guilds members. Fleshing that out a bit could really help I think, make the player feel like a position of authority in a guild actually allows them to influence the guilds policies, and deal with the repurcusions.
Allow me to demonstrate my geek credentials a little bit further and bring in the TV show Babylon 5 into the discussion.
The 5th season of the show addressed the fact that people like to see the Big Dog fall. Even the people who previously supported the Big Dog back when it was the underdog. Maybe it's how we deal with our own securities - people enjoy proving that heroes are mortal and that the gods have feet of clay.
I'm really not sure exactly how you'd present it in an RPG, though, without the RPG being *ABOUT* this phenomenon.
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The 5th season of the show addressed the fact that people like to see the Big Dog fall. Even the people who previously supported the Big Dog back when it was the underdog. Maybe it's how we deal with our own securities - people enjoy proving that heroes are mortal and that the gods have feet of clay.
I'm really not sure exactly how you'd present it in an RPG, though, without the RPG being *ABOUT* this phenomenon.
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