Friday, July 27, 2007
What's the Difference Between Adventure, Puzzle, and Role-Playing Games?
I finally got around to downloading and playing DGM's "The Dungeon" alpha (if you wanna give it a shot, check it out here). Keep in mind that it is still only in alpha. It bears many similarities to the in-development "Deadly Rooms of Death (DROD) RPG" I talked about a couple of weeks ago. It made me think about my defining characteristics of a role-playing game (RPG). One of my defining elements was that there should be an element of randomness (or, to use more college-sounding terms, "non-deterministic" or "stochastic" mechanics) in an RPG. The Dungeon and the DROD RPG do not have this. So are they still RPGs?I'm actually gonna have to stick to my guns here. That's not a qualitative judgment at all - there's nothing inherently superior to being a role-playing game over an adventure game or ... well, whatever cool new label we can give to games like DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold and The Dungeon. While they are puzzle games, they are far, far removed from games like Bejeweled, Minesweeper, or Pathstorm. These games share some definite similarities to adventure games and RPGs, but they also provide a very different "feel" from either.
So here's how I'd tell them apart, both in pedantic prose and an example encounter:
Role-Playing Games (RPGs):
These have elements of resource management, avatar progression, avatar identification / customization, and risk management. Risk management comes from stochastic mechanics - you may able to predict the approximate outcome, but there are no guarantees.
Example Encounter: The player encounters a ferocious Grickle-Grak. He gets into a fight, which ends slightly differently from his previous one-hundred Grickle-Grak fights.
Adventure Games (Interactive Fiction, Graphic Adventures):
These have no resource management other than typically unique inventory items, rarely any avatar customization or progression, and primary mechanics are fully deterministic. These are normally identified by a series of unique puzzles wrapped tightly within the metaphors and context of the story.
Example Encounter: The player encounters a ferocious Grickle-Grak. He uses his can of "Anti-Grickle-Grak Spray" from his inventory, which he previously obtained through the creative use of a peanut-butter sandwich, a golf club, and a portable tape player in the library. The spray makes the Grickle-Grak flee the scene, never to be heard from again.
Adventure-Puzzle Games (for lack of a better name):
These have strong elements of resource management and avatar progression, but deterministic gameplay. The puzzles are generally non-unique, often presenting a challenge in combination with each other that require careful sequential ordering of actions to resolve.
Example Encounter: The player encounters a ferocious Grickle-Grak. Fighting the Grickle-Grak will cost you 100 hit points. Fighting the Tweeter-Bee and then going through the door behind it will only cost you 20 hitpoints and one red key. What will you need more in the next room: the key, or the 80 hit points?
Bonus Game Types
Just to make sure you aren't playing a totally different type of game altogether, here are some other examples:
First-Person Shooter (FPS): You encounter a ferocious Grickle-Grak. Two rockets to the face should do it.
Casual: You encounter a ferocious Grickle-Grak. Match three candies of the same type to satisfy his appetite and make him your friend.
Real-Time Strategy: An army of ferocious Grickle-Graks zerg your base five minutes into the game.
Platformer: You encounter a ferocious Grickle-Grak. You jump on his head three times.
Third-Person Shooter: Just like the first-person shooter, but the game helps you aim the rockets towards his face
Survival Horror: You encounter a ferocious Grickle-Grak. Unfortunately, he takes fifteen bullets to kill, and the game has you down to two. So he devours you in a an extended, gruesome death-scene.
Rhythm Game: You encounter a ferocious Grickle-Grak. Match his mad raps with the right beats to defeat him!
(Vaguely) related senseless expounding:
* But Is It An RPG?
* RPG Design: How Do I Get Past the Stupid Door?
* RPG Design: The "Brute Force" Problem.
UPDATE:
Due to popular demand, a forum thread devoted to this hot topic!
Labels: Adventure Games, Roleplaying Games
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I didn't really expect you to check out The Dungeon until you got back on schedule with your own game, but thanks for the mention.
However, this entry seems more about the difference between various styles of game, and I have to agree with a complaint that another reader made earlier: why are you making forum topics for these kinds of blog entries? I thought the reason you made the forums to begin with was to preserve comments on issues like this.
However, this entry seems more about the difference between various styles of game, and I have to agree with a complaint that another reader made earlier: why are you making forum topics for these kinds of blog entries? I thought the reason you made the forums to begin with was to preserve comments on issues like this.
Under Adventure-Puzzle games, you say: "These have strong elements of resource management and avatar progression, but non-deterministic gameplay." [emphasis mine]
I assume you mean "but deterministic gameplay?"
I assume you mean "but deterministic gameplay?"
Wow, rapid-fire comments :)
I fixed the typo. Thanks. Brain was moving faster than fingers, I guess. And I was sleepy when I edited.
I'm a little conflicted on the forums... I've actually been meaning to post an entry ABOUT the forums and solicit opinions. Many people just don't want to sign up for yet another forum, and blogger lets them post anonymously or on their blogger / google ID.
I fixed the typo. Thanks. Brain was moving faster than fingers, I guess. And I was sleepy when I edited.
I'm a little conflicted on the forums... I've actually been meaning to post an entry ABOUT the forums and solicit opinions. Many people just don't want to sign up for yet another forum, and blogger lets them post anonymously or on their blogger / google ID.
I think the forums are good for commenting on theoretical discussions on game design (like this one) or on your Frayed Knights dev blogs. I think the entries here that touch upon things like specific games (like your RPG updates) might be better for quick comments.
I will say that a number of adventure/IF games do incorporate some measure of stochasticity -- like that annoying little dwarf randomly appearing in the twisty maze. But your point is taken -- stochasticity certainly takes a seat way in the back, if at all.
I will say that a number of adventure/IF games do incorporate some measure of stochasticity -- like that annoying little dwarf randomly appearing in the twisty maze. But your point is taken -- stochasticity certainly takes a seat way in the back, if at all.
Can't you set your forums to allow anonymous posts (with word verification)? If it works for the comments, why not forum posts?
On another note, do you have any feedback for The Dungeon yet? From the "keep in mind that it is still only in alpha" bit, it sounds like you're not too impressed so far.
And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I've long preferred harsh but constructive criticism to polite lies. The first helps me improve, the second only leads me in the wrong direction.
On another note, do you have any feedback for The Dungeon yet? From the "keep in mind that it is still only in alpha" bit, it sounds like you're not too impressed so far.
And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I've long preferred harsh but constructive criticism to polite lies. The first helps me improve, the second only leads me in the wrong direction.
I think you -- and most producers of so-called RPGs for computers -- mis the essential element of an RPG. You should be able to play a role. Avatar advancement, non-deterministic gameplay, etc., are icing on top of this. If playing-the-game overwhelms playing-the-character, to me, it's not a role-playing game.
-- Jack of Spades
-- Jack of Spades
Rubes -
I was thinking specifically of that dwarf when I wrote that. And the thief in Zork. That's why I said "primary mechanics." I had a whole 'nother paragraph I deleted talking about those exceptions, actually :)
DGM - the forums are a completely different system from the comments. Anything is possible, but I haven't coded an automatic solution yet.
I was thinking specifically of that dwarf when I wrote that. And the thief in Zork. That's why I said "primary mechanics." I had a whole 'nother paragraph I deleted talking about those exceptions, actually :)
DGM - the forums are a completely different system from the comments. Anything is possible, but I haven't coded an automatic solution yet.
Jack -
I totally agree with you!
Criterion #4: The Game Encourages the Player to Identify With the Avatar
There is a fifth element which Georgina noted in the comments that isn't in that post --- customization options for the avatar as they progress.
DGM - I really only got through the tutorial and made it to the third (?) level in the main game before I got stuck. I was planning on sending you some more feedback later in PM when I had more of a chance to play.
I totally agree with you!
Criterion #4: The Game Encourages the Player to Identify With the Avatar
There is a fifth element which Georgina noted in the comments that isn't in that post --- customization options for the avatar as they progress.
DGM - I really only got through the tutorial and made it to the third (?) level in the main game before I got stuck. I was planning on sending you some more feedback later in PM when I had more of a chance to play.
Jack: But "playing a role" can't be the sole defining characteristic of an RPG, because pretty much EVERY game puts you in a role. Even Monopoly, which I'm pretty sure nobody considers an RPG.
Coyote: Okay, I'll wait for a PM. Don't get too distracted from your own game, though. :)
Coyote: Okay, I'll wait for a PM. Don't get too distracted from your own game, though. :)
EDIT: The author of the fifth criterion was Gegi, of I Whine About Games.
Credit where credit is due.
Credit where credit is due.
And as I keep responding to myself:
There is a forum thread now :)
In all honesty, I wasn't expecting this much response. Except for silliness.
Rubes - I just re-read what I wrote, and it came out terribly. Anyway - yes, you are right. There is randomness in adventure games, too. Just not as part of the primary mechanics. And I think the best adventure games do include some stochastic elements to keep things interesting. Just as long as you aren't hindered waiting for random events to occur.
There is a forum thread now :)
In all honesty, I wasn't expecting this much response. Except for silliness.
Rubes - I just re-read what I wrote, and it came out terribly. Anyway - yes, you are right. There is randomness in adventure games, too. Just not as part of the primary mechanics. And I think the best adventure games do include some stochastic elements to keep things interesting. Just as long as you aren't hindered waiting for random events to occur.
After going through the tutorial and getting a bit interested in the game I start the main game only to see it's really a puzzle game in disguise. Guess I was seeing the signs of it in the tutorial but it really sinks in when you start the main game. Didn't make it much further after dying once. It's too slow for my tastes for a puzzle game with all the moving around required.
Otherwise the game could really use some polish. Better fonts, tooltips, escape exiting the control panel (took me awhile to realize it was the spacebar), pathfinding with the mouse(why can't I click on steps that I can get to?), an indicator for the monster bar on the position/count (possibly a scrollbar).
Of course none of that really matters to me at the moment because the game is too puzzle like for my tastes.
I do like the way the tutorial was done with the mouth tiles though. A bit more wordy than I'd like and a larger font would be nice but well done.
I don't really buy that deterministic games like this can't be rpgs. It's just that this game uses enemies and keys as puzzle pieces that have to be done in a certain order. Allowing the player to always have a winnable fight in certain areas with some way of having danger of death would likely work (such as spawning enemies behind the player).
Also, I'm one of those that don't like creating forum accounts so I like that comments are enabled. Posting in forums is hell for my time management...yeah, reading blogs and commenting in them aren't that much better.
Otherwise the game could really use some polish. Better fonts, tooltips, escape exiting the control panel (took me awhile to realize it was the spacebar), pathfinding with the mouse(why can't I click on steps that I can get to?), an indicator for the monster bar on the position/count (possibly a scrollbar).
Of course none of that really matters to me at the moment because the game is too puzzle like for my tastes.
I do like the way the tutorial was done with the mouth tiles though. A bit more wordy than I'd like and a larger font would be nice but well done.
I don't really buy that deterministic games like this can't be rpgs. It's just that this game uses enemies and keys as puzzle pieces that have to be done in a certain order. Allowing the player to always have a winnable fight in certain areas with some way of having danger of death would likely work (such as spawning enemies behind the player).
Also, I'm one of those that don't like creating forum accounts so I like that comments are enabled. Posting in forums is hell for my time management...yeah, reading blogs and commenting in them aren't that much better.
Ezin: Thank you for the feedback. Most of the comments I've gotten have been from the DROD forums, so it's useful to get a perspective from someone who isn't already into puzzles of this kind.
I'm already going to switch to the arial font, but your other suggestions - especially pathfinding - have merit. I'll be giving it some thought.
I'm already going to switch to the arial font, but your other suggestions - especially pathfinding - have merit. I'll be giving it some thought.
Coyote: Perhaps you could make a forum topic for all entries, then just prune any that don't generate useful comments after a couple of weeks.
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