Monday, September 10, 2007
When Does a Great Game Cease Being Great?
I got hooked on an old RPG this last week - Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant. I dug up the old stuff weeks ago to try and look at it for research for Frayed Knights. And Let me tell you, it was a booger getting this 15-year-old title running even under DOSBox. The sound still isn't quite right. But now it's very playable.And... strangely... very fun. In fact, possibly more fun today than when I first played it many winters ago, when I got irritated that the monsters didn't drop the weapons they were fighting with, and hated mixing science fiction with my fantasy. I guess I'm mellower now. And not as spoiled - I'm no longer expecting the next greatest RPG to come rolling out onto store shelves each month. That's a bygone era, I'm afraid. And today there are resources on the web to help me when I get stumped or lost (though even then there were files on FTP sites and magazine hint columns to help me through).
Now, many people consider Wizardry 7 to be one of the "greats." But would a modern gamer play Wizardry 7 for more than fifteen seconds before throwing their useless controller down in disgust? Probably not. I'm probably partially immune due to my experience with these ungainly beasts. I'm not blind to the graphical differences between Wizardry 7 and The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, but I think I'm in a position to forgive fifteen years of technological obsolescence.
But that still doesn't explain (I think) why I ended up spending way more time playing the game than I needed to for the purpose of research, and why I really ended up starting to get into it. Possibilities:
#1 - It's me. It's possibly going to be to my ultimate failure as a game designer, but I am not a typical gamer. Now, I've gone back and played some old favorites before and said, "Ugh!" so this isn't a typical response even for me. But maybe there's just something weird with me - now - that clicked.
#2 - I got myself into a mindset to appreciate the game. I went through all the trouble of trying to get the dumb thing to work in an emulator, read some comments by people who'd played the game and talked about how awesome it was (more awesome than I remembered), etc. So when I started up the game, I was just programmed to be more receptive to it.
#3 - There really is something pretty awesome about the game that makes it so compelling. If so, what was it, and what can I do to bottle that?
I suspect there's a little truth in all three possibilities. But it does make me wonder a little bit about what makes a "great" game (and "great" RPG). People still recognize Wizardry 7 as a "great" RPG. But is that something that only exists in a historical perspective? Is a "great" game only great for its time, relative to its social and technological setting? Or would a great game still be recognized as great by a modern game by a modern audience if you forced 'em to sit through long enough to get used to the graphics and interface?
I don't know. I gotta be honest here - I have watched Citizen Kane, and while I understand its historical relevance in legitimizing cinema as an art form, and its innovation in the form of certain camera techniques, and its social message in its time in relation to William Hearst... I really didn't enjoy the movie all that much. I thought it was "okay." But I'm a modern moviegoer. I see the parallels with gaming.
Does a great game cease to be great at some point? What's the deal?
(Vaguely) related diatribes:
* The Sixteen Essential RPGs
* Why Bother With Single-Player RPGs?
* The Most Important CRPGs of All Time
.
Labels: retro, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 1:12 AM (Permalink)
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Wizardry 7 is probably the only RPG I have played that truly has all the elements in the right place. While yes, there are a few random frustrations, those frustrations were dwarfed by the overall complexity of the game. Exploration is rewarded, quests are meaningful, and the story line is a bit above average.
There are very few games I have put in as much time as as W7. One of the things to note is the challenge. It is a challenging rpg beyond the challenge offered from many of the new mainstream rpgs.
Multiclassing was fun W7. Very few games do this well, and W7 made it interesting.
This RPG probably has a higher percentage of things done right and good balance than any RPG before or after.
There are very few games I have put in as much time as as W7. One of the things to note is the challenge. It is a challenging rpg beyond the challenge offered from many of the new mainstream rpgs.
Multiclassing was fun W7. Very few games do this well, and W7 made it interesting.
This RPG probably has a higher percentage of things done right and good balance than any RPG before or after.
Well, here's something I noticed right from the get-go:
There's a "bunny slope" dungeon before you get to the city. AFAICT, it's optional. Mostly. But there's a scrap of paper on it that's an advertisement for a shop inside the city.
When you get to the city, you are asked your business. It gives you a text interface to type your response. Now you have to think. The scrap of paper provides the clue, but it doesn't literally spell out, "Here's what to say to get past the guard!" If you get it wrong, you are turned away.
Now here's the thing. You have two choices at this point. You can try again, talking to the guard and guessing again - maybe hunting down in the dungeon for the clue if you never did find the scrap.
Or you can push past the guard and fight him a couple of squares further in. He's pretty tough for the level that you'll likely be entering the city, but I do not believe he's impossible to defeat. Spend a few levels wandering around the wilderness, and I think you can brute force your way in.
Maybe there's a third option - I don't know. But the text-interface question feels rather satisfying. You had to come up with the answer rather than being spoon-fed the solution. And I guess defeating the guy later would probably feel pretty good, too.
There's clearly a preferred answer, but it is nice to feel like it's not forced upon you. Even if I am totally wrong and the guard really is indestructible.
There's a "bunny slope" dungeon before you get to the city. AFAICT, it's optional. Mostly. But there's a scrap of paper on it that's an advertisement for a shop inside the city.
When you get to the city, you are asked your business. It gives you a text interface to type your response. Now you have to think. The scrap of paper provides the clue, but it doesn't literally spell out, "Here's what to say to get past the guard!" If you get it wrong, you are turned away.
Now here's the thing. You have two choices at this point. You can try again, talking to the guard and guessing again - maybe hunting down in the dungeon for the clue if you never did find the scrap.
Or you can push past the guard and fight him a couple of squares further in. He's pretty tough for the level that you'll likely be entering the city, but I do not believe he's impossible to defeat. Spend a few levels wandering around the wilderness, and I think you can brute force your way in.
Maybe there's a third option - I don't know. But the text-interface question feels rather satisfying. You had to come up with the answer rather than being spoon-fed the solution. And I guess defeating the guy later would probably feel pretty good, too.
There's clearly a preferred answer, but it is nice to feel like it's not forced upon you. Even if I am totally wrong and the guard really is indestructible.
I have The Ultimate Wizardry Archives, which includes the Gold Edition, so you can run it on Windows.
I remember playing 7 and trying to figure out a way to survive long enough to get anywhere. I eventually settled on having a Bard in my party so that I can put enemies to sleep. Otherwise, I just kept having an entire party dead before the end of the first or second battle.
Then again, maybe I was just getting the hang of the game mechanics.
I didn't play much once I got into town. I was just trying out the game as part of the collection. I will eventually play through all of the games. I still need to finish the first one! And I still have a save game for W8. I'll look forward to playing through W7 even more now. B-)
The Great Gatsby is an enjoyable book, even today. As I understand it, Fitzgerald wrote it for three audiences: scholars, critics, and readers. He somehow managed to satisfy them all, and for many decades. Perhaps a great game also needs to satisfy critics, scholars, and players...and we've only just recently seen scholars enter the video game industry.
I remember playing 7 and trying to figure out a way to survive long enough to get anywhere. I eventually settled on having a Bard in my party so that I can put enemies to sleep. Otherwise, I just kept having an entire party dead before the end of the first or second battle.
Then again, maybe I was just getting the hang of the game mechanics.
I didn't play much once I got into town. I was just trying out the game as part of the collection. I will eventually play through all of the games. I still need to finish the first one! And I still have a save game for W8. I'll look forward to playing through W7 even more now. B-)
The Great Gatsby is an enjoyable book, even today. As I understand it, Fitzgerald wrote it for three audiences: scholars, critics, and readers. He somehow managed to satisfy them all, and for many decades. Perhaps a great game also needs to satisfy critics, scholars, and players...and we've only just recently seen scholars enter the video game industry.
@gbgames
I have the archive as well. If you can get dos box working with W7 go that route. Gold has some issues that take away from the game. One issue that drove me up the wall was that at level up, all your random stat increases were displayed within a second. I actually got to where I could process it after a few months, but I eventually got dos box up and running and had a much better time with the original 7. Some people had luck with the slow down options, but they did not work for my computer.
The bard I found essential in W8, but W7 has better balance, and once you get the hang of the mechanics, it is still challenging, but possible. It just has a steep learning curve. Also, put a Lord in the front if you haven't already, they take damage very well. Also, experiment with multiple races, mooks are pretty good on the front line too.
@coyote
I have never tried going straight into New City. I am going to have to try it now. I'll be spinning circles in the open fields for hours. :-)
BTW, you could spoof that crazy idea. Have an optional boss in the game that will randomly fight you in a certain area if you spin circles. :-)
I have the archive as well. If you can get dos box working with W7 go that route. Gold has some issues that take away from the game. One issue that drove me up the wall was that at level up, all your random stat increases were displayed within a second. I actually got to where I could process it after a few months, but I eventually got dos box up and running and had a much better time with the original 7. Some people had luck with the slow down options, but they did not work for my computer.
The bard I found essential in W8, but W7 has better balance, and once you get the hang of the mechanics, it is still challenging, but possible. It just has a steep learning curve. Also, put a Lord in the front if you haven't already, they take damage very well. Also, experiment with multiple races, mooks are pretty good on the front line too.
@coyote
I have never tried going straight into New City. I am going to have to try it now. I'll be spinning circles in the open fields for hours. :-)
BTW, you could spoof that crazy idea. Have an optional boss in the game that will randomly fight you in a certain area if you spin circles. :-)
There's a concept from old-school games I am not fond of... the possibility of shooting yourself in the foot with initial party / character creation. Nothing quite like getting 10 hours into a game only to find it becomes virtually impossible if you hadn't made proper preparations when you first started playing.
Then again, IIRC, the older Wizardry games ( and Bard's Tale, I think) would let you swap characters in and out in mid-game. You might have to go back to revisit the newbie lands to level up your new addition, but it was a recoverable error.
Then again, IIRC, the older Wizardry games ( and Bard's Tale, I think) would let you swap characters in and out in mid-game. You might have to go back to revisit the newbie lands to level up your new addition, but it was a recoverable error.
The Great Gatsby is an enjoyable book, even today. As I understand it, Fitzgerald wrote it for three audiences: scholars, critics, and readers. He somehow managed to satisfy them all, and for many decades. Perhaps a great game also needs to satisfy critics, scholars, and players...and we've only just recently seen scholars enter the video game industry.
You know, Interplay used to have the motto, "By gamers, for gamers." The audience thing is kind of an interesting point. The last ten years, it's been all about "broadening the market." Though pleasing the critics has been a factor too. But a lot of the "broadening the market" has meant "dumbing down" or - more kindly - appealing to the lowest common denominator. Or the hardest of the hardcore. And not going beyond that except to add difficulty levels.
Shakespeare was a master of appealing to multiple audiences. The groundlings were probably a vocal majority that he had to appeal to, lest his performances would get booed and heckled mercilessly (and maybe they were?). Yet in order to get the well-to-do to attend the cushioned expensive seats, he had to appeal to their class, station, and education. His plays are masterworks partly because they expertly juggle the expectations of all their audiences.
It kinda brings to mind the comment I heard many years ago at GDC about "responsible glitchiness" (they were talking design glitchiness, not code glitchiness) - you cannot please everybody all the time. But maybe we can do a better job of juggling... pleasing enough people enough of the time and providing stuff that goes deeper than just trying to make the groundlings go, "Cool!"
You know, Interplay used to have the motto, "By gamers, for gamers." The audience thing is kind of an interesting point. The last ten years, it's been all about "broadening the market." Though pleasing the critics has been a factor too. But a lot of the "broadening the market" has meant "dumbing down" or - more kindly - appealing to the lowest common denominator. Or the hardest of the hardcore. And not going beyond that except to add difficulty levels.
Shakespeare was a master of appealing to multiple audiences. The groundlings were probably a vocal majority that he had to appeal to, lest his performances would get booed and heckled mercilessly (and maybe they were?). Yet in order to get the well-to-do to attend the cushioned expensive seats, he had to appeal to their class, station, and education. His plays are masterworks partly because they expertly juggle the expectations of all their audiences.
It kinda brings to mind the comment I heard many years ago at GDC about "responsible glitchiness" (they were talking design glitchiness, not code glitchiness) - you cannot please everybody all the time. But maybe we can do a better job of juggling... pleasing enough people enough of the time and providing stuff that goes deeper than just trying to make the groundlings go, "Cool!"
After getting an account with Gametap (a service I now consider essential for any PC gamer), I decided to check out the Might & Magic games I'd heard about so often. The first couple were basically unplayable for a modern gamer (not helped by some speed issues with text flying by in the first game), and the others, at least without reading a manual first, were hard for me to get into though I may eventually read up some more and try them again.
Then I decided to try out Heroes of Might & Magic, not really clear on the difference or relation. Through an Underdogs download (plus I legitimately purchased a Millenium Edition collection before I got the Gametap account), I found King's Bounty bundled with HOMM1, as a little bonus from the developer.
King's Bounty, sometimes known as HOMM0 (zero), was surprisingly enjoyable given its age, and I spent quite a number of hours with it, but ultimately it was too tedious for me to finish. HOMM1 was a direct descendant, but added some fascinating gameplay elements and complexity. I played through it and quite enjoyed myself, but still it was not really a game I could recommend to anyone but a retro gamer.
Then I tried HOMM2 on Gametap, and that has blown my socks off. Wonderful game, totally engaging, has the same components and strategy of HOMM1 but with much better maps and a sophisticated multi-branching campaign, as well as some nice gameplay fixes. I've been playing it for hours and hours often way too late...when I switched computers and it would be a pain to move my savefiles over, I happily started the campaign over again.
It's like encountering Civilization for the first time...and it has many similarities to Civ, but is somehow even more compelling to me.
Anyway I bring this up because as far as I'm concerned, HOMM2 is as playable and enjoyable now as it was when released ten years ago or so and I'm not playing it out of any retro sensibility, but just because it's damn fun.
I intend to play the Evil campaign through again (making for 2.5 times total) so I can try branches I missed the first time (choices you make have a big impact on future missions). Then I'll play the Good campaign, then the expansion, and then on to HOMM3.
I'm almost scared of HOMM3, as everyone seems to agree that's the best of the series, and if I'm having this much fun now...
Then I decided to try out Heroes of Might & Magic, not really clear on the difference or relation. Through an Underdogs download (plus I legitimately purchased a Millenium Edition collection before I got the Gametap account), I found King's Bounty bundled with HOMM1, as a little bonus from the developer.
King's Bounty, sometimes known as HOMM0 (zero), was surprisingly enjoyable given its age, and I spent quite a number of hours with it, but ultimately it was too tedious for me to finish. HOMM1 was a direct descendant, but added some fascinating gameplay elements and complexity. I played through it and quite enjoyed myself, but still it was not really a game I could recommend to anyone but a retro gamer.
Then I tried HOMM2 on Gametap, and that has blown my socks off. Wonderful game, totally engaging, has the same components and strategy of HOMM1 but with much better maps and a sophisticated multi-branching campaign, as well as some nice gameplay fixes. I've been playing it for hours and hours often way too late...when I switched computers and it would be a pain to move my savefiles over, I happily started the campaign over again.
It's like encountering Civilization for the first time...and it has many similarities to Civ, but is somehow even more compelling to me.
Anyway I bring this up because as far as I'm concerned, HOMM2 is as playable and enjoyable now as it was when released ten years ago or so and I'm not playing it out of any retro sensibility, but just because it's damn fun.
I intend to play the Evil campaign through again (making for 2.5 times total) so I can try branches I missed the first time (choices you make have a big impact on future missions). Then I'll play the Good campaign, then the expansion, and then on to HOMM3.
I'm almost scared of HOMM3, as everyone seems to agree that's the best of the series, and if I'm having this much fun now...
Anyway I bring this up because as far as I'm concerned, HOMM2 is as playable and enjoyable now as it was when released ten years ago or so and I'm not playing it out of any retro sensibility, but just because it's damn fun.
It's good to know, at least, that I'm not alone in the universe. I have NEVER played the HOMM series, I confess... I haven't signed up for GameTap yet, but maybe I should. Or shouldn't. I've lost too much time the last couple of weeks playing Wiz 7 and the new indie RPG, Depths of Peril. Could be REALLY dangerous for me... :)
But yeah - it always made me wonder. If a game was GREAT 10 years ago, is it NOT great now? Seems like greatness can stand the test of time, even if technology has passed it by.
It's good to know, at least, that I'm not alone in the universe. I have NEVER played the HOMM series, I confess... I haven't signed up for GameTap yet, but maybe I should. Or shouldn't. I've lost too much time the last couple of weeks playing Wiz 7 and the new indie RPG, Depths of Peril. Could be REALLY dangerous for me... :)
But yeah - it always made me wonder. If a game was GREAT 10 years ago, is it NOT great now? Seems like greatness can stand the test of time, even if technology has passed it by.
Some artworks age well, some other don't.
Still, there are many old things really enjoyable.
Movies? Think about The Public Enemy (1931). Ok first half is boring, but second half is really really great.
Videogames? SMB is 1985, Microprose Soccer is 1989, they're still perfectly enjoyable.
The same could be said of many products, in any art, I guess.
Still, there are many old things really enjoyable.
Movies? Think about The Public Enemy (1931). Ok first half is boring, but second half is really really great.
Videogames? SMB is 1985, Microprose Soccer is 1989, they're still perfectly enjoyable.
The same could be said of many products, in any art, I guess.
PS: since you DO have the forum, why don't you use it for ALL comments, not only dev diary?
it's so much better!
here, I almost certanly won't read the answers to what I wrote, while on forum I can follow them easily.
it's so much better!
here, I almost certanly won't read the answers to what I wrote, while on forum I can follow them easily.
PS: since you DO have the forum, why don't you use it for ALL comments, not only dev diary? it's so much better!
Because I received some complaints for people who don't want to sign up for yet another forum. And it IS a pain, since there's no real integration between the two different solutions.
It's keeping me awake at night... :(
Well, okay, no, my other activities are what keeps me awake. But it does bug me.
Because I received some complaints for people who don't want to sign up for yet another forum. And it IS a pain, since there's no real integration between the two different solutions.
It's keeping me awake at night... :(
Well, okay, no, my other activities are what keeps me awake. But it does bug me.
there is a solution.
you can have a forum with anonymous comments enabled, so people won't have to sign up.
and to defy bots (there are MANY of them) you can add a simple captcha just for these anonymous users. I do not mean dumb complicated captchas like blogger uses. A *very* simple one like twentysided uses is sufficent to block every bot.
I belive there are phpBB mods that do that, and I also think I could easily do one myself, if you need one. (also, phpBB3 includes one by default, I think, though, since it's default, it's more vulnerable to bots).
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you can have a forum with anonymous comments enabled, so people won't have to sign up.
and to defy bots (there are MANY of them) you can add a simple captcha just for these anonymous users. I do not mean dumb complicated captchas like blogger uses. A *very* simple one like twentysided uses is sufficent to block every bot.
I belive there are phpBB mods that do that, and I also think I could easily do one myself, if you need one. (also, phpBB3 includes one by default, I think, though, since it's default, it's more vulnerable to bots).
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