Thursday, October 18, 2007
Torque 2 Game Engine Enters "Transparent" Development
Stephen Zepp of GarageGames posted today about "Torque 2" entering "heavy development." In addition, they are attempting "Transparent Development" - which is to say they will be making the development process visible to the community, and inviting the community's feedback during development.
Sorta like what I'm doing with Frayed Knights. Only hopefully much better.
What's this mean to indies using various flavors of Torque? Well, possibly a lot, but not immediately, except for the chance to have more active participation and visibility in the evolution of the new engine.
For one thing - their "hit list" addresses key issues that have been major pains to developers. Mainly, it's breaking down the monolithic structure of the game engine into modularized components. Since I've learned that too often making "one little change" in Torque involves eight different changes across four different files (pretty much "by Braille," since there's very little documentation on that code), this sounds like a good idea to me.
The new engine will incorporate both 2D and 3D technologies similar to what is currently in TGB and TGE-A, but will not be backwardly compatible with the previous engines. It will use "Poly Soup" collision handling by default, which means the old CSG-style / BSP-based interiors may finally go away. It is intended to be easier to "plug in" major systems (like Python or LUA instead of TorqueScript for scripting, Zepp suggests) with the new modular architecture.
But aside from this, a lot is up in the air. The "transparent" process means there'll be a lot of things discussed in the "transparent development" community, considered, and maybe even attempted that don't make it into the ultimate 1.0 release of the engine.
TGE, TGB, and TGE-A are going to be "sunset" at some point after Torque 2's release (once it has been given enough time to mature), and details are fuzzy (and likely not determined yet). But the post strongly indicates that any project currently in development - or entering development in the next 6-9 months - should use existing technology. Torque-X is going to remain an independent product and will not be affected by Torque-2's development.
GarageGames, not-so-newly purchased by IAC, now has the funding and manpower now to make this happen - here's hoping for some good stuff.
Labels: programming, Torque
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 7:13 PM (Permalink)
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Ahh, the sound of GarageGames hype marathon. It starts with 'oooh ahhh' and ends with 'what? hmm? bugs?' with fanboys leading the way (not referring to you Rampant :D).
So let me get this straight. During their so called "lack of funding" phase, instead of fixing and polishing the main engines they had, they spent time and resources launching useless stuff like TorqueX and Game Experiment.. basically tried to dip their fingers into every corner of the gaming market only to end up getting bought by a company (with majority share) and releasing news on Torque 2 while completely destroying the promises they made on 'fixing' their current engines over and over again (their's a Torque 2 thread, they canceled the support for TGEA promised OpenGL implementation as well).
Meh! I don't really take them seriously anymore. Only GG fanboys (read = programmers who actually managed to create a game that no one outside GG cared about) will be happy about this news, especially about this "transparent development" bit.. considering C4 engine has been doing that bit for ages with way smaller team than GG.
Anyways, let's see where the new freak-show will take this community.
/rant
So let me get this straight. During their so called "lack of funding" phase, instead of fixing and polishing the main engines they had, they spent time and resources launching useless stuff like TorqueX and Game Experiment.. basically tried to dip their fingers into every corner of the gaming market only to end up getting bought by a company (with majority share) and releasing news on Torque 2 while completely destroying the promises they made on 'fixing' their current engines over and over again (their's a Torque 2 thread, they canceled the support for TGEA promised OpenGL implementation as well).
Meh! I don't really take them seriously anymore. Only GG fanboys (read = programmers who actually managed to create a game that no one outside GG cared about) will be happy about this news, especially about this "transparent development" bit.. considering C4 engine has been doing that bit for ages with way smaller team than GG.
Anyways, let's see where the new freak-show will take this community.
/rant
Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel, Nikhil! :)
(Actually, I shouldn't say that, because sometimes people really are holding back...)
I must confess, my first thought when I read this was, "Boy, I'm glad I didn't buy TGE-A."
I have plenty of complaints about TGB and TGE, not the least of which is how much of a pain TGE is to work with under the hood (TGB isn't nearly as bad, though if you go deep enough, it's TGE). But in the end, I know how to use 'em, they WORK, and have been used to make several games.
I'm still annoyed that TGB doesn't support DirectX with 3D objects, though.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing how things pan out here. I hope Torque 2 is pretty awesome, but I'm not necessarily going to use it with any future projects. A new engine in the indie price range isn't a bad thing. But I think we've all learned at this point not to make commitments to technology or tools based on promises (from GG or any other provider). You have to go with what can be done with it RIGHT NOW.
(Actually, I shouldn't say that, because sometimes people really are holding back...)
I must confess, my first thought when I read this was, "Boy, I'm glad I didn't buy TGE-A."
I have plenty of complaints about TGB and TGE, not the least of which is how much of a pain TGE is to work with under the hood (TGB isn't nearly as bad, though if you go deep enough, it's TGE). But in the end, I know how to use 'em, they WORK, and have been used to make several games.
I'm still annoyed that TGB doesn't support DirectX with 3D objects, though.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing how things pan out here. I hope Torque 2 is pretty awesome, but I'm not necessarily going to use it with any future projects. A new engine in the indie price range isn't a bad thing. But I think we've all learned at this point not to make commitments to technology or tools based on promises (from GG or any other provider). You have to go with what can be done with it RIGHT NOW.
I don't think even TGB is under Indie price range (not for the version which you will REALLY need to do anything worthwhile).
Even though people like Derek Smart have predicted the demise of GG, I sure hope GG survives this because I bought TGE for what I thought was going to a be artist friendly game development tool (boy was I wrong).
Let's see, TGE is programmers paradise, their ad for TGE on products section doesn't say anywhere that the developer should be 'an advanced C++' programmer to not only make his game but fix the damn engine and add features that should have been in their for ages (how about more tiles for terrain?.. of wait, it lowers performance? how about fixing that?.. oh wait, the code is too complicated to fix?). Even iD software with Tech5 is focusing on improving GUI for artists unlike last times when only Carmack was available to put it all together in a hurry ending up with programmer friendly development tools. Again, from GG posts I can tell they aren't focusing on improving GUI for artists since everyone on their site is busy chiming in with their poor excuse of "programmers engine".
So like I said, I will be waiting for Torque 2 but this time I will first look at C4 and the likes where the developer fixes and adds features in about a week (seriously, you guys should support them). I am working on 2D game at the moment so I don't want to bother with Torque or anything at the moment. Hopefully by the time I am done with my game they will have a working platform for programmers and artists alike.
Even though people like Derek Smart have predicted the demise of GG, I sure hope GG survives this because I bought TGE for what I thought was going to a be artist friendly game development tool (boy was I wrong).
Let's see, TGE is programmers paradise, their ad for TGE on products section doesn't say anywhere that the developer should be 'an advanced C++' programmer to not only make his game but fix the damn engine and add features that should have been in their for ages (how about more tiles for terrain?.. of wait, it lowers performance? how about fixing that?.. oh wait, the code is too complicated to fix?). Even iD software with Tech5 is focusing on improving GUI for artists unlike last times when only Carmack was available to put it all together in a hurry ending up with programmer friendly development tools. Again, from GG posts I can tell they aren't focusing on improving GUI for artists since everyone on their site is busy chiming in with their poor excuse of "programmers engine".
So like I said, I will be waiting for Torque 2 but this time I will first look at C4 and the likes where the developer fixes and adds features in about a week (seriously, you guys should support them). I am working on 2D game at the moment so I don't want to bother with Torque or anything at the moment. Hopefully by the time I am done with my game they will have a working platform for programmers and artists alike.
BTW, Rampant (seriously, what's your 'human' name? :P) I am not saying that 'every' TGE game sucks. I have seen (esp. recently) some games that are rivaling Stalker in quality level (lacking the tide of post-processing effects of course) and then even you have experience with it and have obviously made good games with it as well. I just want GG to understand that if they add basic gameplay features and make it available through GUI to artists there will be 20 good looking games out there faster than 500 crappy looking MMO's that just makes their own engine looks like crap. But every-time someone has actually told them to do this, add proper GUI support for basic features, the fanboy programmers come rolling in with "learn to program if you want to make a game" lines.
Recipe for disaster.
Recipe for disaster.
It's Jay Barnson (It's on the main blog page, under the "Free Newsletter" block).
I haven't actually SHIPPED a commercial game using Torque technology yet (I've worked on a private project using TGB). Void War used my own, custom engine.
The reason I chose TGE was that it had:
* Good support for older systems. I wanted to be compatible for people with 5-year old systems
* A decent terrain engine
* Seamless transitions between outdoor terrain and interior, QUAKE-style levels.
* Multi-platform compatability
* A good tools path that supports Blender & Milkshape 3D, including animation.
* Mature engine that wouldn't require me to spend a bunch of time dealing with engine bugs.
Do I get that with Torque? Yes. I really can't complain about what I got for the price. But I'm a programmer who WISHES he had the time to devote to making good art.
I *think* I understand where you are coming from. There have been a lot of failed projects that had some really good art, but without a programmer to get under the hood and make things happen, it's fairly limited what you can do.
That's true of all engines, though, unless it's a "game toolkit." Although I confess... the engine that I'm working with for my "day job" is really pretty impressive what it can do. There are still some major limits to what you can do without a programmer, but it's dang impressive how much control it gives the artists and designers. Unfortunately, I can't say anything more about it than "it's really cool."
I haven't actually SHIPPED a commercial game using Torque technology yet (I've worked on a private project using TGB). Void War used my own, custom engine.
The reason I chose TGE was that it had:
* Good support for older systems. I wanted to be compatible for people with 5-year old systems
* A decent terrain engine
* Seamless transitions between outdoor terrain and interior, QUAKE-style levels.
* Multi-platform compatability
* A good tools path that supports Blender & Milkshape 3D, including animation.
* Mature engine that wouldn't require me to spend a bunch of time dealing with engine bugs.
Do I get that with Torque? Yes. I really can't complain about what I got for the price. But I'm a programmer who WISHES he had the time to devote to making good art.
I *think* I understand where you are coming from. There have been a lot of failed projects that had some really good art, but without a programmer to get under the hood and make things happen, it's fairly limited what you can do.
That's true of all engines, though, unless it's a "game toolkit." Although I confess... the engine that I'm working with for my "day job" is really pretty impressive what it can do. There are still some major limits to what you can do without a programmer, but it's dang impressive how much control it gives the artists and designers. Unfortunately, I can't say anything more about it than "it's really cool."
"..but it's dang impressive how much control it gives the artists and designers.."
That is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Give the non-programmers at least some control without going deep inside the depths of SDK. It's not like no one realizes that they won't have to program 'at all'. I mean, if I had to code all of this myself I might as well use freeware engine like Ogre.. their community has the basic editor and feature available just like Torque, that leaves Torque with nothing special except for the network code as far as I can tell.
BTW, even I bought Torque after I was impressed with the terrain engine. Thanks to the private TDN, which is hyped on their site and others like some holy grail of information,I didn't realize that the only documentation that will be available is going to be that small PDF you get with the demo.
Anyways, good luck with your projects in the future. I have played Void War (I thought it was made with TGE) and it reminds me of Freespace.. simply fun. As for me, I will probably give Torque another try but not before I learn basic programming concepts (that's why I am working on 2D game.. to learn before moving over to 3D). My mistake when buying Torque was that unlike you I wasn't sure about what I was looking for.. I just got lured in like a fool by the terrain engine and "It was used in Tribes" lines.. I just didn't think about programming bit until I had the SDK in my hands :(
That is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Give the non-programmers at least some control without going deep inside the depths of SDK. It's not like no one realizes that they won't have to program 'at all'. I mean, if I had to code all of this myself I might as well use freeware engine like Ogre.. their community has the basic editor and feature available just like Torque, that leaves Torque with nothing special except for the network code as far as I can tell.
BTW, even I bought Torque after I was impressed with the terrain engine. Thanks to the private TDN, which is hyped on their site and others like some holy grail of information,I didn't realize that the only documentation that will be available is going to be that small PDF you get with the demo.
Anyways, good luck with your projects in the future. I have played Void War (I thought it was made with TGE) and it reminds me of Freespace.. simply fun. As for me, I will probably give Torque another try but not before I learn basic programming concepts (that's why I am working on 2D game.. to learn before moving over to 3D). My mistake when buying Torque was that unlike you I wasn't sure about what I was looking for.. I just got lured in like a fool by the terrain engine and "It was used in Tribes" lines.. I just didn't think about programming bit until I had the SDK in my hands :(
The one thing I have been impressed with is how much you can actually do with Torque Script. I am working (against it seems) TGB, and love and hate many parts of it. The thing about TGB, is it needs polish, it all needs polish. Almost every feature is half done in terms of commercial software. It is really dwarfed when compaired to free tools like blender and gimp that rival some commercial tools available.
Anyway, the power and aggravation of torque script is what keeps me here. I basically have to hack many things to work, sometimes basic functions refuse to work such as several of their string manipulation functions. I think it sometimes mistakes strings for lists and doesn't tokenize or concatinate them right.
A modular approach right away grabbed my attention. This is right in every way, as long as they can mimick this same performance in the upcoming engine. However, I feel that their current engines need to be finished now. Behaviors are too good to just leave be in this rickety program. I first used the ideas of behaviors in Java3d and found them to be very easy to use and keep track of. Behaviors are how I am going to handle game events and NPC functionality. I thought about static monster placement, though I think I will stick with datablocks for all dynamic objects, though I did find that you can dynamically set behaviors with a list.
Anyway, the power and aggravation of torque script is what keeps me here. I basically have to hack many things to work, sometimes basic functions refuse to work such as several of their string manipulation functions. I think it sometimes mistakes strings for lists and doesn't tokenize or concatinate them right.
A modular approach right away grabbed my attention. This is right in every way, as long as they can mimick this same performance in the upcoming engine. However, I feel that their current engines need to be finished now. Behaviors are too good to just leave be in this rickety program. I first used the ideas of behaviors in Java3d and found them to be very easy to use and keep track of. Behaviors are how I am going to handle game events and NPC functionality. I thought about static monster placement, though I think I will stick with datablocks for all dynamic objects, though I did find that you can dynamically set behaviors with a list.
Am one of the guys who brought this TGEA under these false promised, and am not the only one; we are a lot of guy who brought this game engine to encourage Game Garage.
GG was done by indie for indie and become a strategic money maker, just look at the guy who works there now. So mister money doesn’t want deliver the merchandise, that ok we can do something about it we are not invalid or stupid, when a companies do that we got some resort, and you know what I lost a lot of year trying to debug a dysfunctional game engine and I will charge if I loose that too!
Why not regroup every owner of TGEA in a private forum to decide what to do whit this can of worm, we can hire a real good coder to finish the game engine and remove the bug, or we can hire a lawyer and start the real war. With 200 or 300 voice or perhaps more you can start the real deal and stop playing the yoyo.
GG was done by indie for indie and become a strategic money maker, just look at the guy who works there now. So mister money doesn’t want deliver the merchandise, that ok we can do something about it we are not invalid or stupid, when a companies do that we got some resort, and you know what I lost a lot of year trying to debug a dysfunctional game engine and I will charge if I loose that too!
Why not regroup every owner of TGEA in a private forum to decide what to do whit this can of worm, we can hire a real good coder to finish the game engine and remove the bug, or we can hire a lawyer and start the real war. With 200 or 300 voice or perhaps more you can start the real deal and stop playing the yoyo.
# posted by 
: October 22, 2007 6:53 PM
: October 22, 2007 6:53 PM
Well, my big question about TGEA was just how "ready for prime time" it was. They did manage to ship Marble Blast Ultra with it on the 360, which is a cool thing... but I'm not sure what else has made it commercially using the engine.
It really comes down to how long they give full support of their existing engines. I mean, when you have the code and tools, nothing's stopping you from continuing to release TGEA games for the next 20 years. I really wouldn't expect GG to support it the whole time, however (TGE is pushing a decade, now, though...)
At some point, the engines have to be retired. It's just a question of what's reasonable. If we (and by "we" I mean, "me") were doing things right, we'd be cranking out a new game every year with the engines. 5 years of use out of an engine at that rate should be plenty reasonable.
I personally wouldn't expect GG to stop supporting their legacy engines until at least 2009, and hopefully not until 2010 or so.
It really comes down to how long they give full support of their existing engines. I mean, when you have the code and tools, nothing's stopping you from continuing to release TGEA games for the next 20 years. I really wouldn't expect GG to support it the whole time, however (TGE is pushing a decade, now, though...)
At some point, the engines have to be retired. It's just a question of what's reasonable. If we (and by "we" I mean, "me") were doing things right, we'd be cranking out a new game every year with the engines. 5 years of use out of an engine at that rate should be plenty reasonable.
I personally wouldn't expect GG to stop supporting their legacy engines until at least 2009, and hopefully not until 2010 or so.
Yeah. There are a number of things I have to say on this, but I don't want to bore you. So, I just want to say that yes, the Torque engine is cool, albeit buggy, but that's partially because of the lack of people working to make it better for all. I mean, if supposedly there are a bunch of people there who are "advanced C++ programmers" on their site and in their forums, then why in the world can't one of them buy the engine, f***ing FIX it, and re-release it with a better editor? At least put in a better tutorial for game developers for making art assets, instead of (how I learned) having to buy the book for $50 and using trial-version MilkShape.
So, instead of us all wasting our time ranting online about it, let's fix it, hm? Or at least make a better editor that artists and scripters can use? How about a sub-scripting language (or whatever) for making AI subroutines? Or a better script debugger? Just make something and publish it so the rest of us can reap the benefits. Please.
(By the way, I'm currently scripting in a suite of datablock generator scripts and GUIs for server-side mods)
So, instead of us all wasting our time ranting online about it, let's fix it, hm? Or at least make a better editor that artists and scripters can use? How about a sub-scripting language (or whatever) for making AI subroutines? Or a better script debugger? Just make something and publish it so the rest of us can reap the benefits. Please.
(By the way, I'm currently scripting in a suite of datablock generator scripts and GUIs for server-side mods)
# posted by : November 01, 2007 3:43 PM
: November 01, 2007 3:43 PM
Good to hear from an independent source how people are taking the Torque 2.0 announcement. It's been a few weeks now since we announced Torque 2.0, and we're still cranking away on both our current products and our new engine. It's also very exciting to watch Instant Action grow into the new portal for on-line hardcore gaming, whether you're using Torque, C4, or your own custom solution.
As for our current Torque products, they've been used to make some sweet stuff, most recently the vSide Virtual Music World and Hothead's upcoming Penny Arcade game. We know, though, that the engine isn't perfect, which is why I'm interested in the comments made in this thread. I've already made some notes for myself on what people liked and what could be better. I'll keep monitoring this thread for more comments, and I welcome any direct feedback about TGEA, TGE, TGB or whatever to me at deborahm (at) garagegames.com.
Keep making great games, guys! ^_^
Deborah Marshall
Torque Product Group Manager
As for our current Torque products, they've been used to make some sweet stuff, most recently the vSide Virtual Music World and Hothead's upcoming Penny Arcade game. We know, though, that the engine isn't perfect, which is why I'm interested in the comments made in this thread. I've already made some notes for myself on what people liked and what could be better. I'll keep monitoring this thread for more comments, and I welcome any direct feedback about TGEA, TGE, TGB or whatever to me at deborahm (at) garagegames.com.
Keep making great games, guys! ^_^
Deborah Marshall
Torque Product Group Manager
Seems GG Proved most you guys wrong and havent abandoned there current engines with with a new massive 1.7 update for TGEA. /wink
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# posted by : March 24, 2008 4:53 PM
: March 24, 2008 4:53 PMLinks to this post:
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