Monday, January 14, 2008
On Making 3D
I have come to the realization that, after Gutenberg's little gizmo put them out of work copying and illuminating documents, the medieval European monks might have found 3D texture art to have been a perfect match for their skills. Assuming 3D modeling was in line with their religious beliefs. And assuming they had 21st century computers at their disposal in the 15th.
In elementary school, I learned about why the different projections of a 2D map of the world were flawed, and how Greenland really wasn't as big as all of North America. But aside from that, I thought it was largely an academic exercise. Then I tried to keep straight lines straight on a (simulated) curvy object. Suddenly that third-grade geography lesson takes on a whole new meaning.
Two things I have discovered (repeatedly) is that:
#1 - Creating 3D content (or good 2D art, for that matter) is not easy.
#2 - The stylistic differences in off-the-shelf content packs render them almost totally incompatible. In case you haven't seen what I meant from the Frayed Knights screen shots, here's what I mean:
These guys look great on their own, but just cannot dwell on the same screen together. Unless it's Roger Rabbit World. This yields the inevitable conclusion:
#3 - If you are making a 3D game with a lot of content requirements, you are pretty much hosed.
Which is where I sit. I keep spending time trying to massage content instead of coding, trying to tweak textures, lighting, and models enough to make things not quite so eye-searingly bad.
And I continue to bump into my own limitations as a game developer. Yes, I've got 'em. Not just in content creation, but in coding too. This weekend I spent several hours in a forced education about Torque's animation system. All this just to get a character to cross a room and say something to the player. I tell myself it's black triangle work. Even this far into the project, there are black triangles to be drawn.
The bottom line is that creating a game is hard work, and if anybody goes into it already knowing everything there is to know, for which it is all a piece of cake, I've not met them. I've been at this for years, now, and some days I still feel like I am fighting for every five minutes of gameplay.
Incidentally - getting any of the above models and then spending some time on them in the modeling package of your choice, learning how really skilled artists built it, laid out the textures, and rigged the thing is a fascinating and extremely educational exercise. I recommend it if you have the slightest interest.
Labels: Frayed Knights, game art, productivity
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 6:13 AM (Permalink)
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#3 - If you are making a 3D game with a lot of content requirements, you are pretty much hosed.
Well, unless you're independently wealthy. But yeah, welcome to my world. I have grown to really appreciate the guy doing the modeling for Vespers -- he has extraordinary talent and I am very lucky that (a) he is really interested in the project, and (b) he doesn't charge me an arm and a leg. Not to mention he's fast, thorough, and -- well, I'd better stop before somebody steals him away from me.
I've been educating myself on Torque's animation system for months now, and I expect I'll be learning for months to come. It's not terribly complicated overall, but it's really all of the little details that throw me off, and there are probably a few little bugs left in the system just for good measure.
I've also gained an appreciation of how difficult it is to do really good, smooth, lifelike animation, too. That's a whole world unto itself, too.
Well, unless you're independently wealthy. But yeah, welcome to my world. I have grown to really appreciate the guy doing the modeling for Vespers -- he has extraordinary talent and I am very lucky that (a) he is really interested in the project, and (b) he doesn't charge me an arm and a leg. Not to mention he's fast, thorough, and -- well, I'd better stop before somebody steals him away from me.
I've been educating myself on Torque's animation system for months now, and I expect I'll be learning for months to come. It's not terribly complicated overall, but it's really all of the little details that throw me off, and there are probably a few little bugs left in the system just for good measure.
I've also gained an appreciation of how difficult it is to do really good, smooth, lifelike animation, too. That's a whole world unto itself, too.
Umm... yeah. What's his name? And email address? ;)
The guys I have working with me on Frayed Knights are great, but there's just too much to do. It was pretty funny asking Kevin if he could do "twelve more dungeons, just like this one?" in six months. He was quiet for a very long time, before saying, "Uhh..."
It's frustrating seeing that we're three months away from having Chapter 1 "finished," and being so-close-and-yet-so-far.
The guys I have working with me on Frayed Knights are great, but there's just too much to do. It was pretty funny asking Kevin if he could do "twelve more dungeons, just like this one?" in six months. He was quiet for a very long time, before saying, "Uhh..."
It's frustrating seeing that we're three months away from having Chapter 1 "finished," and being so-close-and-yet-so-far.
I keep bumping into 3D creation while trying to create something game like. Countless times i came to the "black triangle" part and stood there, waiting for some magic tool to make making 3D content easy.
Do I need to say that I'm still waiting.
Do I need to say that I'm still waiting.
Good art is always difficult to come by. And the fact that 3D models are a combination of art and functionality just makes it more uncommon.
I guess while we complain about how stagnant the mainstream game industry is, it can't be denied that the reason 85% of their development resources go into engine and graphics is because it literally takes that much to get anything done.
Maybe a few courses at DigiPen's not a bad idea...
I guess while we complain about how stagnant the mainstream game industry is, it can't be denied that the reason 85% of their development resources go into engine and graphics is because it literally takes that much to get anything done.
Maybe a few courses at DigiPen's not a bad idea...
I am just doing 2d and I feel your pain. It seems like if anything should take an hour, it takes 3. I really enjoy doing art and graphics for the first few hours, but it is certainly hard work, and takes a lot of patience. I have noticed I throw away more art than I use. I have literally wasted days worth of time on content I threw away because it was, well, you know. :-)
@hugo - LOL, yeah. I keep joking about when the game tool will come out that has just a "Make My Game" button that does everything for you.
And when that happens, I guess I'll be out of a job.
I've gotten to the point where I can do a halfway decent job on non-organic objects. I textured a bed recently that I thought didn't look half bad (it looked at least as good as one I later acquired via a content pack). The treasure chest I did a little while ago needs some fixing (mainly making the boards all the same size), but I thought it was at least passable.
A lumpy sack, however, came off looking not-ready-for-prime-time, and my attempts at modifying character graphics have been sincerely lamentable.
@Adam - this is a real issue. A good 3D model - including texturing, rigging, and animation - takes at least four separate skills. And technical ability - sorta looking at it like a programmer - is high on the list.
That's something to be said for making graphics more abstract and less realistic - the mind doesn't demand as much from the abstract.
And when that happens, I guess I'll be out of a job.
I've gotten to the point where I can do a halfway decent job on non-organic objects. I textured a bed recently that I thought didn't look half bad (it looked at least as good as one I later acquired via a content pack). The treasure chest I did a little while ago needs some fixing (mainly making the boards all the same size), but I thought it was at least passable.
A lumpy sack, however, came off looking not-ready-for-prime-time, and my attempts at modifying character graphics have been sincerely lamentable.
@Adam - this is a real issue. A good 3D model - including texturing, rigging, and animation - takes at least four separate skills. And technical ability - sorta looking at it like a programmer - is high on the list.
That's something to be said for making graphics more abstract and less realistic - the mind doesn't demand as much from the abstract.
@DrSlinky - And in 2D, you have to deal with the fact that an animation might have to be done several different times (especially in an iso-view game). While every frame isn't exactly a do-over from scratch, there's a lot of work required there, too.
So it's not just limited to 3D. That's just the area I'm grousing in right now :)
So it's not just limited to 3D. That's just the area I'm grousing in right now :)
I feel your pain, Jay. With Bit Battles I went in knowing that it was probably going to be a one-man project and I'm a fairly crap artist. I designed the game with those things in mind which has certainly helped but I've also trapped myself between a bit of a rock and a hard place. I'm still a one-man show but leveraging content packs isn't possible as the world looks so different from anything out there.
I suppose in the end it comes down to doing the best you can with what you've got. :) A cornerstone of indie development is innovation and apparently that attitude has to be carried over to all aspects of the game development process, not just design.
I suppose in the end it comes down to doing the best you can with what you've got. :) A cornerstone of indie development is innovation and apparently that attitude has to be carried over to all aspects of the game development process, not just design.
A three hour tour....
A three hour tour....
Everything art-wise is measurable in mouse-clicks. Abstract art and cartoony art and such can save on mouse clicks but in the end the same steps are required (meshing, UV mapping, textures (sometimes multiple layers), creating the skeleton, rigging (more or less), attaching the mesh to the bones, animating, and then exporting it all, tagging events and creating sounds/particles, which still means a whole lot of time.
Plus gamers demand variety these days. Lets take some bejeweled or tetris game-- If you make one that looks pretty standard, and I make one that has 45 versions and variations of every gem, with particle effects and glittering animations and everything, you're going to have a hard time competing side-by-side. So with that in mind, for the more numerous creatures in my game I've added alternate skins, or HLS variations for various clothing/skin color combinations, alternate horns or weapons or armor... A creature can take twice as long to create as would one that has only one appearance. And I'm workign low-poly (<1K usually) so I dont even have to deal with normal mapping etc.
Generally I consider myself lucky to create a character with basic variability, sounds, movement, attack, idle, and death animations in 5 days full-time work.
You can get software that lets you paint directly onto the model. Its good for getting the layout (getting your lines straight and seams matching up) but its essentially useless for creating final texture art. I rarely use it but sometimes it helps for blending edges.
Speaking of edges, I have a program that Dan wrote called Anti-bleed. It simply goes around and blends out the edges of textures (streaks them outward into unused space on a model's texture) to prevent the jagged edges of textures from showing in the model. UV coordinates vary a bit from card to card so you need some padding. I'll send it to you if you want it. I've been using it for 10 years.
-Herb-
A three hour tour....
Everything art-wise is measurable in mouse-clicks. Abstract art and cartoony art and such can save on mouse clicks but in the end the same steps are required (meshing, UV mapping, textures (sometimes multiple layers), creating the skeleton, rigging (more or less), attaching the mesh to the bones, animating, and then exporting it all, tagging events and creating sounds/particles, which still means a whole lot of time.
Plus gamers demand variety these days. Lets take some bejeweled or tetris game-- If you make one that looks pretty standard, and I make one that has 45 versions and variations of every gem, with particle effects and glittering animations and everything, you're going to have a hard time competing side-by-side. So with that in mind, for the more numerous creatures in my game I've added alternate skins, or HLS variations for various clothing/skin color combinations, alternate horns or weapons or armor... A creature can take twice as long to create as would one that has only one appearance. And I'm workign low-poly (<1K usually) so I dont even have to deal with normal mapping etc.
Generally I consider myself lucky to create a character with basic variability, sounds, movement, attack, idle, and death animations in 5 days full-time work.
You can get software that lets you paint directly onto the model. Its good for getting the layout (getting your lines straight and seams matching up) but its essentially useless for creating final texture art. I rarely use it but sometimes it helps for blending edges.
Speaking of edges, I have a program that Dan wrote called Anti-bleed. It simply goes around and blends out the edges of textures (streaks them outward into unused space on a model's texture) to prevent the jagged edges of textures from showing in the model. UV coordinates vary a bit from card to card so you need some padding. I'll send it to you if you want it. I've been using it for 10 years.
-Herb-
# posted by 
: January 14, 2008 1:55 PM
: January 14, 2008 1:55 PM
Interesting article. I'm coming at indie game dev from the other side. I'm originally an artist, and have been teaching myself torquescript. It's taken me about a year to learn enough to be able to make a decent game in a short time. Unfortunately, it will probably take longer for a programmer to learn art skills, and then 3d art skills. Your best bet is to find a good artist willing to work for a low price in exchange for credit + royalties deal. I recommend you scour the forums at polycount.com!
Of course, I still have to pay for my sound effects and music - but I'm learning that next :-)
Of course, I still have to pay for my sound effects and music - but I'm learning that next :-)
"These guys look great on their own, but just cannot dwell on the same screen together. Unless it's Roger Rabbit World."
Couldn't you use that somehow? This game centers around mocking CRPG conventions, so why not include the artwork in that as well?
Couldn't you use that somehow? This game centers around mocking CRPG conventions, so why not include the artwork in that as well?
@Chrish -
True, but in the end it's gotta be about what the customer gets, not the effort (or expense) that went into making it. If it distracts the player, it's not gonna work.
@Herb -
Yes, please send that my way. jayb at rampantgames dot com, if you could! I'd love to try it out.
And you are 100% right on the amount of time required - however, there is the whole thing about how they could make a cave troll look fantastic but Legolas still looks silly with his animation - the more realistic / familiar something is, the higher our expectations. People don't complain that a cartoon character doesn't look mo-capped.
And less realistic looks age better. As in World of Warcraft.
So yeah - it doesn't save you much, but I think that players feel more comfortable "using their imaginations" to fill in details than with a more realistic look.
@monorail - I'm gonna have to visit polycount.com! I do have some more artistically-inclined folks working with me on this one... I *SHOULD* leave well enough alone and leave it to them, but I can't resist getting my fingers dirty. And then I wonder why I'm so disappointed by the results!
But I really want to get better at the art side of things, at least so I can do a better job of giving the professional artists a thumbnail.
And I'm still working on getting a game done in a decent amount of time, so congrats! Feel free to post what you are working on in the forums.
@DGM - I want to avoid too much unfocused mocking, lest the only thing mock-worthy be me. :)
True, but in the end it's gotta be about what the customer gets, not the effort (or expense) that went into making it. If it distracts the player, it's not gonna work.
@Herb -
Yes, please send that my way. jayb at rampantgames dot com, if you could! I'd love to try it out.
And you are 100% right on the amount of time required - however, there is the whole thing about how they could make a cave troll look fantastic but Legolas still looks silly with his animation - the more realistic / familiar something is, the higher our expectations. People don't complain that a cartoon character doesn't look mo-capped.
And less realistic looks age better. As in World of Warcraft.
So yeah - it doesn't save you much, but I think that players feel more comfortable "using their imaginations" to fill in details than with a more realistic look.
@monorail - I'm gonna have to visit polycount.com! I do have some more artistically-inclined folks working with me on this one... I *SHOULD* leave well enough alone and leave it to them, but I can't resist getting my fingers dirty. And then I wonder why I'm so disappointed by the results!
But I really want to get better at the art side of things, at least so I can do a better job of giving the professional artists a thumbnail.
And I'm still working on getting a game done in a decent amount of time, so congrats! Feel free to post what you are working on in the forums.
@DGM - I want to avoid too much unfocused mocking, lest the only thing mock-worthy be me. :)
Pleasing the consumer is certainly important. My point was more that finding innovative ways of dealing with just these issues is something every indie deals with (atleast I hope, else I'm worse off than I realized!).
Throwing money at things can help but unless you have an unlimited budget there's going to come a point where it's no longer a viable option. Perhaps I'm wrong but I look at each purchase as, "Well, that's another X number of buys I'll need before I break even."
In the end, I don't think there's an easy 'one size fits all' answer here or even a solution period. Dealing with the problem (and simply dealing with it is most likely the best anyone can do) probably means picking and choosing content packs with an eye not only on price/quality but also style while also looking at the game with the very critical viewpoint of: 'what can I/my team realistically accomplish within this time frame'. It's all well and good to want a dungeon, village and outskirts teeming with unique 'stuff' but if you have three months remaining and it takes three weeks to get a pus golem up and running... something's gotta give.
Perhaps all of this is obvious but it's late and I'm allowed at least one ramble. :]
Throwing money at things can help but unless you have an unlimited budget there's going to come a point where it's no longer a viable option. Perhaps I'm wrong but I look at each purchase as, "Well, that's another X number of buys I'll need before I break even."
In the end, I don't think there's an easy 'one size fits all' answer here or even a solution period. Dealing with the problem (and simply dealing with it is most likely the best anyone can do) probably means picking and choosing content packs with an eye not only on price/quality but also style while also looking at the game with the very critical viewpoint of: 'what can I/my team realistically accomplish within this time frame'. It's all well and good to want a dungeon, village and outskirts teeming with unique 'stuff' but if you have three months remaining and it takes three weeks to get a pus golem up and running... something's gotta give.
Perhaps all of this is obvious but it's late and I'm allowed at least one ramble. :]
I ramble even when it's not late... :)
And yeah, I know what you mean. There is no simple answer. I knew what I was getting into when I decided to make a 3D RPG, so I can't claim ignorance. I've got plans for dealing with this. And I've got some great art people working on things (I just got the 90% complete Pus Golem in, and he's looking mighty gross! In a good way!).
There's just a lot of odds and ends to manage. And I get really frustrated when when I can't make the quality as high as I'd like, and I don't want to use "indie" as an excuse or defense.
It'll all come together. I'm convinced of that. I'm just grousing here at this stage, and admitting to my own limitations. Which is always painful. :)
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And yeah, I know what you mean. There is no simple answer. I knew what I was getting into when I decided to make a 3D RPG, so I can't claim ignorance. I've got plans for dealing with this. And I've got some great art people working on things (I just got the 90% complete Pus Golem in, and he's looking mighty gross! In a good way!).
There's just a lot of odds and ends to manage. And I get really frustrated when when I can't make the quality as high as I'd like, and I don't want to use "indie" as an excuse or defense.
It'll all come together. I'm convinced of that. I'm just grousing here at this stage, and admitting to my own limitations. Which is always painful. :)
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