Wednesday, March 26, 2008
RPG Design: The End Is Nigh!
Today's discussion is sort of a companion-piece with Monday's. It has to do with finishing games - or specifically, finishing RPGs.
I've unfortunately got quite a list of RPGs for which I've never reached the end. Some of them I hope / expect to get around to it "one day" (unlikely, as some of those games are over a decade old). Others I have completely given up on.
My reasons for quitting vary. Sometimes they never really hooked me - I felt myself going through the motions, but an hour or two in I was still far from invested in the characters, world, or story. I just didn't care before the tedium hit. Other times, the game just kinda blew from the get go. In a couple of cases, I was enjoying the game when a game-destroying bug put an end to my fun. I hate it when they do that.
And what compels me to play to the end? That's one of those questions I keep trying to answer with articles like "What Makes a Great RPG?"
What Kept Me Playing?
There are some games which had such a strong beginning that I felt compelled to play even through the weak ending. Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption comes to mind. I got hooked on the angsty (albeit purple and overwrought) love-story, the semi-authentic medieval setting with the overwhelming presence of the church, and of course the flavor of the license. I wouldn't say it's a great game, but it hooked me.
Oblivion - the story sucked. I mean, it really sucked. Your character was a fill-in-the-blanks person, and I didn't find most of the characters to be all that likable. But the world - wow. The world was compelling, and I don't just mean graphically. It felt explorable. There was interesting stuff to find all over the place, and the bajillion subquests were often very entertaining and had some nice twists. And since I felt like I could go for the final end-game stuff at any time (pretty much guaranteed with the lame auto-scaling factor), it never felt like it went too long, even at over 100 hours in.
Ultima VII - The story and characters hooked me from the get-go. That game probably has the single strongest intro (for me, at least) of any RPG - it opens with a murder mystery.
Aveyond 2: Ean's Quest - I got hooked early on by the characters. The world was silly and cute, but by the time I rescued a major character, I was hooked on wanting to see them through the end of their story, even if it lost part of its compelling drama after that point.
Why I Forgot To Keep Playing
For where I lost it - Ultima VI kept losing me the pirate map quest. I guess I just get lost in the "what do I do now?" phase.
Final Fantasy XII may not have lost me forever, but somewhere in the grinding I kinda lost the thread of the story and lost interest.
I started Dungeon Siege 2, and didn't get far past the tutorial. I was just overwhelmed by a feeling of deja vu. Maybe it was because it was so action-heavy, and it began too much like a generic third-person shooter or something for me.
And for Neverwinter Nights 2, it was no direct fault of the game. My video cards were going bad (apparently, they didn't like my motherboard, and overheated), so I was getting spiky polygons all over the place. My infuriation with my expensive SLI-linked cards dying spilled over into the game that was the final straw. I need to get the expansion, roll up a Spirit Shaman, and try it again.
Your Input
And sometimes, the work / tedium involved in too many games exceeds the pleasure I get from them. Which was part of the reason for Monday's post. Some games feel much longer than they are. Others make 40+ hours disappear in a flash.
And say what you will about Oblivion's hand-holding to get you to your quests, but due to a grown-up schedule and occasional crunch-modes at work (not to mention Rampant Games stuff...), I find myself not playing for a couple of weeks. So a game that can re-engage my interest quickly and gently point me where I need to go next is welcome.
So here are some questions I put to you:
* What percentage of RPGs do YOU actually complete?
* If you don't complete every game, what has made you give up?
* What makes you play to the end, besides your obsessive-compulsive streak?
I've got a forum thread with a fancy poll and everything over in the community area, but feel free to answer here, too, if you really have an aversion to signing up for a really cool forum 'n stuff...
(Vaguely) related tilting at windmills:
* How Many Hours to an RPG?
* Big World, Small Dungeon: Does Size Matter in RPGs?
* How Quickly Does a Game Have to "Hook" You?
* RPG Design: Quest Abuse
.
Labels: Game Design, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 6:53 AM (Permalink)
Comments:
Links to this post:
<< Home
I try to complete all I start, see my degrading slog through Gates of Delirium on ArmchairArcade....
There are some I started but never finished (Knights of Legend, Faery Tale I, BloodWyche, Elder Scrolls I, Tunnels and Trolls)..
Have not really bought anything new in years... no compelling reason to any more.
I remember Elder Scrolls I, I just could not get into the 3D and the combat mechanics. I tried several times but ugh.
BloodWyche I got lost in the maze (its a dungeon master clone) and gave up for lack of what to do...
Faery Tale, I dont specifically remember... i just remember not completing it and not wanting to...
TnT, too buggy (quest text for quests that didnt exist, locations that didnt exist, hated the interface! ugh).
I think my c64 died during knights of legend...
I hated buying a game and not seeing the end, and feeling I wasted my money :)
And now with family... our time is spent hiking/mt biking/kayaking/etc so.. no time to play games (barely any time to code my games and I'd rather code than play)
There are some I started but never finished (Knights of Legend, Faery Tale I, BloodWyche, Elder Scrolls I, Tunnels and Trolls)..
Have not really bought anything new in years... no compelling reason to any more.
I remember Elder Scrolls I, I just could not get into the 3D and the combat mechanics. I tried several times but ugh.
BloodWyche I got lost in the maze (its a dungeon master clone) and gave up for lack of what to do...
Faery Tale, I dont specifically remember... i just remember not completing it and not wanting to...
TnT, too buggy (quest text for quests that didnt exist, locations that didnt exist, hated the interface! ugh).
I think my c64 died during knights of legend...
I hated buying a game and not seeing the end, and feeling I wasted my money :)
And now with family... our time is spent hiking/mt biking/kayaking/etc so.. no time to play games (barely any time to code my games and I'd rather code than play)
Hmm. I usually stick through games just to see how they end, the same reason I'll finish a book I might be half-hearted about. The most recent game I decided not to finish was probably Aveyond -- I was so sick of traveling back and forth from one place to another that I eventually just quit and when I picked it up again, I'd so completely lost my place that I couldn't continue.
i don't play many RPGs, but i do play other games, which i rarely finish.
Xcom3- too hard, and the missions are all mostly identical
starcraft- too hard. liked the story, but at the 8th terran mission i was physically unable to continue. i might pick it up again, since i've gotten better.
supreme commander- liked the story, really hated the second missions
most 4X games- take too long, no story to keep it interesting
nethack- do you have to ask?
most games- too hard.
Xcom3- too hard, and the missions are all mostly identical
starcraft- too hard. liked the story, but at the 8th terran mission i was physically unable to continue. i might pick it up again, since i've gotten better.
supreme commander- liked the story, really hated the second missions
most 4X games- take too long, no story to keep it interesting
nethack- do you have to ask?
most games- too hard.
# posted by 
: March 26, 2008 12:30 PM
: March 26, 2008 12:30 PM
The 'what do I do know' senario is probably what stops me from finishing most games - This has become a little better with the internet and having access to walkthroughs, but really all new RPGs should include quest journals and notes for important information, Computers are better at remembering stuff than I am.
The big thing for me is difficulty. After all these years I'm a decent enough gamer, but I don't have a lot of patience for the practice and move-memorization required in most action games, and I don't have any patience for the leveling investment required in many RPGs. So when a boss or challenge comes along in either type of game that demands a sudden spike in my time investment, I might just cut the game off. I'm lucky enough to have a wealth of entertainment at my fingertips - there are plenty of books/movies/other games I could be enjoying that don't require hoop-jumping on my part.
Ironically enough, I'm more likely to stop playing a game due to difficulty the deeper and more involved I am in the story. The key thing here is frustration. It's frustrating to get beaten early on in a game, when you're still learning the ropes; it's far more frustrating to get beaten later on, when the momentum of the story and context are pulling you forward, only to have a big smelly chunk of poorly-designed and pretentious gameplay block your path - it's like an hour of static waylaying you just before the climax of a good movie. The vitality and the momentum are lost, maybe forever, because a film is never as engrossing or surprising as it is the first time.
So my patience for challenging gameplay decreases the better a story is, and the further along I'm into it. I abandoned Final Fantasy 3, 7, 9, 10, and 12 in their closing acts, and two of them (7 and 9) at the final boss fight.
Ironically enough, I'm more likely to stop playing a game due to difficulty the deeper and more involved I am in the story. The key thing here is frustration. It's frustrating to get beaten early on in a game, when you're still learning the ropes; it's far more frustrating to get beaten later on, when the momentum of the story and context are pulling you forward, only to have a big smelly chunk of poorly-designed and pretentious gameplay block your path - it's like an hour of static waylaying you just before the climax of a good movie. The vitality and the momentum are lost, maybe forever, because a film is never as engrossing or surprising as it is the first time.
So my patience for challenging gameplay decreases the better a story is, and the further along I'm into it. I abandoned Final Fantasy 3, 7, 9, 10, and 12 in their closing acts, and two of them (7 and 9) at the final boss fight.
I usually fail to complete a game due to A) Some show-stopping design issue, or B) Pure boredom.
Examples include:
* Oblivion: Maybe I'll complete this someday, but right now I'm pretty unstoked with the game. Sure it's beautiful, but the gameplay has become rather dull, "Oh, ANOTHER oblivion gate, yay..." or "Another NPC with a weird-looking face and the same voice as the last 3 I talked to, blah..." or "Another glass sword of evil slaying, *toss*"... =\
Interestingly enough, Morrowind was far more compelling to me (I did complete Morrowind and moved on to the expansions...), even though the formula was much the same... hmm.
* Diablo II Expansion: Never finished this because it became crazy difficult and I wasn't willing to grind levels to finish it.
* Dungeon Siege 2: Played the demo which was enough for me. It wasn't really better than DS 1 in any way; graphics were the same, gameplay was the same, etc. Pretty much just a retread. Meh.
* Neverwinter Nights: From the start, this game just never really did it for me. I restarted it several times with the intent to have some fun with it, but there was always something better to play, so...
* Daggerfall: A lot of fun for a while, but between the hellacious bugginess and the cookie-cutter towns, NPCs, dungeons, etc. it got old pretty fast.
Two key points:
1) I think designers need to realize that, in their attempts to create vast worlds with procedural content, they generally just end up creating the same little world over and over and over and......
2) Single player games generally don't hold my interest anymore. For example, Oblivion would be far more compelling at this point as an MMORPG or if it at least had the option for limited co-op play. Games just aren't as fun when you're playing alone.
Examples include:
* Oblivion: Maybe I'll complete this someday, but right now I'm pretty unstoked with the game. Sure it's beautiful, but the gameplay has become rather dull, "Oh, ANOTHER oblivion gate, yay..." or "Another NPC with a weird-looking face and the same voice as the last 3 I talked to, blah..." or "Another glass sword of evil slaying, *toss*"... =\
Interestingly enough, Morrowind was far more compelling to me (I did complete Morrowind and moved on to the expansions...), even though the formula was much the same... hmm.
* Diablo II Expansion: Never finished this because it became crazy difficult and I wasn't willing to grind levels to finish it.
* Dungeon Siege 2: Played the demo which was enough for me. It wasn't really better than DS 1 in any way; graphics were the same, gameplay was the same, etc. Pretty much just a retread. Meh.
* Neverwinter Nights: From the start, this game just never really did it for me. I restarted it several times with the intent to have some fun with it, but there was always something better to play, so...
* Daggerfall: A lot of fun for a while, but between the hellacious bugginess and the cookie-cutter towns, NPCs, dungeons, etc. it got old pretty fast.
Two key points:
1) I think designers need to realize that, in their attempts to create vast worlds with procedural content, they generally just end up creating the same little world over and over and over and......
2) Single player games generally don't hold my interest anymore. For example, Oblivion would be far more compelling at this point as an MMORPG or if it at least had the option for limited co-op play. Games just aren't as fun when you're playing alone.
@Metallimoose:
"...only to have a big smelly chunk of poorly-designed and pretentious gameplay block your path..."
Couldn't agree more! I despise game designers that try to shove their "vision" down my throat, come hell or high water. There are so many times where I've come across something and been like, "Hell, no, this isn't fun!" and if it's lame enough, I'm "uninstall-and-delete-every-last-vestige" done with that game.
Now that I think about it, that kinda happened in the middle of Nox...
"...only to have a big smelly chunk of poorly-designed and pretentious gameplay block your path..."
Couldn't agree more! I despise game designers that try to shove their "vision" down my throat, come hell or high water. There are so many times where I've come across something and been like, "Hell, no, this isn't fun!" and if it's lame enough, I'm "uninstall-and-delete-every-last-vestige" done with that game.
Now that I think about it, that kinda happened in the middle of Nox...
I probably finish about 10% of all RPG's I buy. In the early days, the main reason for not finishing was windows 95 and 98. I just couldn't keep a computer going long enough to finish an RPG. :-) Within that period I did manage to complete Shadows over Riva simply because I wouldn't stop playing it. There was such a looming dark atmosphere with clever plot twists all throughout the game. On top of all that, the game play was way above average for any RPG.
Another thing Shadows over Riva did different than the others was shrink down the gameworld and made the NPC's memorable. It also made the game world managable for the average gamer, I was able to give the notepad a rest.
I finished FF8 and 9, they both had good stories and kept things interesting. FF8 had an insane difficulty at places, but most of those places were optional. FF6 is one I want to finish, but it just goes on and on. The overall story to me is stronger than 7, but it just doesn't know when enough is enough. FF7 was a dual Win98 and Eidos fault. I had to fight the fight on Hawk hill over a dozen times before the game didn't crash and freeze immediatly after. Then, about 3 hours into the third disc win98 went down and a format error on data recovery destroyed my save games. I most likely would have finished this one.
All D&D games lost me towards the end. This includes both Baulders Gates and NWN's. After about level 15, levels just come too slow, and I loose interest. I like leveling up and editing stats. I have played through the same parts of these games several times, but right about level 15, I quit every time.
Wizardry 7 is incredible, but I doubt I ever finish it. By about witch mountain, there are so many lingering quests that I just feel overwhelmed with my TODO list. Only a handful of major quests should ever be this long term, and they had better have some serious story backing their importance.
Diablo and Diablo 2 were compelling to complete. Both games are great time killers, and finishing either just seems to make sense. Plus, since it doesn't have to end, and new weapons might come available, and equipment junky like myself just can't stop.
Another thing Shadows over Riva did different than the others was shrink down the gameworld and made the NPC's memorable. It also made the game world managable for the average gamer, I was able to give the notepad a rest.
I finished FF8 and 9, they both had good stories and kept things interesting. FF8 had an insane difficulty at places, but most of those places were optional. FF6 is one I want to finish, but it just goes on and on. The overall story to me is stronger than 7, but it just doesn't know when enough is enough. FF7 was a dual Win98 and Eidos fault. I had to fight the fight on Hawk hill over a dozen times before the game didn't crash and freeze immediatly after. Then, about 3 hours into the third disc win98 went down and a format error on data recovery destroyed my save games. I most likely would have finished this one.
All D&D games lost me towards the end. This includes both Baulders Gates and NWN's. After about level 15, levels just come too slow, and I loose interest. I like leveling up and editing stats. I have played through the same parts of these games several times, but right about level 15, I quit every time.
Wizardry 7 is incredible, but I doubt I ever finish it. By about witch mountain, there are so many lingering quests that I just feel overwhelmed with my TODO list. Only a handful of major quests should ever be this long term, and they had better have some serious story backing their importance.
Diablo and Diablo 2 were compelling to complete. Both games are great time killers, and finishing either just seems to make sense. Plus, since it doesn't have to end, and new weapons might come available, and equipment junky like myself just can't stop.
"in a couple of cases, I was enjoying the game when a game-destroying bug put an end to my fun."
I had this with Icewind Dale II. I was really into the game (despite heavy use of save games to beat almost every combat), when at the start of new map, I ran into an enemy that just wouldn't take damage. (Not damage resistance, the game told you about that.) I looked a bit for a bug fix or whatever, but lost my immersion in the game and didn't go back.
I still haven't finished FFXII, despite really enjoying the game. I got to the dungeon where it's six different sections and in each section you can't use a particular command (fight or magic or whatever). I was just sneaking in an hour or two here and there, and didn't feel like revamping my gambits to take into account the lack of the fight command. So I haven't gone back since.
Paradox of choice killed Disgaea II for me. There's so much to do in that game that if I finish just one story battle, I feel like I'm missing 90% of the game. It's fun, but it's just way too much.
Surprisingly enough, I'm playing WoW again. I know it doesn't really fit in with the topic of discussion, but since I play solo except for a bit of PVP, and even then I don't actually talk to anyone, it feels the same to me. I had given up on it because I just got bored of the lack of commitment. None of the quests really matter, dying doesn't really matter, one single level doesn't really matter, etc. But now that I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it, all those things have become appealing. It's nice to be able to pick up and play for an hour, finish a quest or two, and shut it off again.
Post a Comment
I had this with Icewind Dale II. I was really into the game (despite heavy use of save games to beat almost every combat), when at the start of new map, I ran into an enemy that just wouldn't take damage. (Not damage resistance, the game told you about that.) I looked a bit for a bug fix or whatever, but lost my immersion in the game and didn't go back.
I still haven't finished FFXII, despite really enjoying the game. I got to the dungeon where it's six different sections and in each section you can't use a particular command (fight or magic or whatever). I was just sneaking in an hour or two here and there, and didn't feel like revamping my gambits to take into account the lack of the fight command. So I haven't gone back since.
Paradox of choice killed Disgaea II for me. There's so much to do in that game that if I finish just one story battle, I feel like I'm missing 90% of the game. It's fun, but it's just way too much.
Surprisingly enough, I'm playing WoW again. I know it doesn't really fit in with the topic of discussion, but since I play solo except for a bit of PVP, and even then I don't actually talk to anyone, it feels the same to me. I had given up on it because I just got bored of the lack of commitment. None of the quests really matter, dying doesn't really matter, one single level doesn't really matter, etc. But now that I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it, all those things have become appealing. It's nice to be able to pick up and play for an hour, finish a quest or two, and shut it off again.
Links to this post:
<< Home
